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When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 03:47
by BrotherBored
I get this question all the time from students and new players. I finally got around to writing my answer.

I give my answer to this question in a ~2,000 word blog post.

I hope you all find this interesting and useful.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 08:49
by Oh Cheese
When you are playing as Russia, only.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 16:44
by jay65536
You seem to think that Germany should let Russia have Sweden in most cases.

The next question is, if you are Germany and you can already tell from your Spring 01 negotiations that you will let Russia have Sweden, is there a different reason why you still claim you would never consider opening F Kie-Hol? In my experience it is an underrated and occasionally useful move.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 17:04
by asudevil
Never. Unless turkey is in Black Sea... then mayve

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 20:31
by HunsRus
jay65536 wrote:You seem to think that Germany should let Russia have Sweden in most cases.

The next question is, if you are Germany and you can already tell from your Spring 01 negotiations that you will let Russia have Sweden, is there a different reason why you still claim you would never consider opening F Kie-Hol? In my experience it is an underrated and occasionally useful move.


I think it goes without saying if you're opening to Holland that you're also letting Russia into Sweden. I usually try to get Germany to make this opening when I'm Russia since it assures Sweden

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 09:59
by hedge trimmer
Great article, possibly because it reflects my own thoughts on the issue. I've seen plenty of German players getting annihilated when there's an obvious E/F happening and they STILL bounce Russia out of Sweden, even though Russia (and Italy) should be encouraged to help you as much as possible.

jay65536 wrote:The next question is, if you are Germany and you can already tell from your Spring 01 negotiations that you will let Russia have Sweden, is there a different reason why you still claim you would never consider opening F Kie-Hol? In my experience it is an underrated and occasionally useful move.

If Russia knows you're moving to Holland he might just ignore whatever deal you have made since he knows he's getting Sweden either way. Him not knowing your opening to Holland might be a problem too, since it might make the whole Sweden negotiation seem like a bluff. On the other hand, two sets of agreed moves should create a pretty strong basis for further cooperation, if you don't decide to take Sweden for yourself in 1902.

Depending on what's going on with E/F, you pushing for Belgium might make them unhappy too. Especially England since Russia is now in Sweden and your fleet can be only used to threaten him.

Tactically Denmark is a great place for a fleet, and a terrible place for an army. Holland isn't quite the opposite, but I think an army there usually works better.

I've seen successful Germanys open to Holland though, so I agree that it can be useful, but overall I think Denmark is the safer and more neutral choice. It leaves you with more options diplomatically and allows you to see the opening moves.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 14:10
by jay65536
Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that it is always, or even usually, good to go to Holland.

I'm saying that maybe 20-30% of games it could be considered a useful alternative to Denmark, rather than the 0% that a lot of players seem to believe it is.

Also, when I am Germany and I play Kie-Hol, I never tell Russia I am doing this. I always let the Czar be pleasantly surprised.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 16:40
by hedge trimmer
Right, right. I had hoped that BrotherBored would reply as well, but I think it possibly goes back to playing Gunboat where I assume you can't as easily mitigate the risks that come with the move to Holland.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 19:07
by jay65536
I don't play gunboat but I can't imagine you would ever not play a static strategy in the opening. Gunboat strikes me as a game where if you are playing an anonymous game or don't know who the other players are you should always be playing the same opening in S01 100% of the time.

That said, there are players who play full-press (or FtF) who believe it is never correct to go to Holland. I don't agree with them.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2019, 22:33
by BrotherBored
I am in the camp that believes it is unwise to open to Holland. I think that's a bit tangential and a requires a complicated explanation. However, I'll say this: the more I think about it, the more I think opening to Holland is unwise. I am generally against openings that require immense trust or lock you in to certain tactics.