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Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 15 Oct 2019, 15:11
by Zosimus
The only time to open fleet to Holland as Germany is when you are certain that Russia will open the Squid. Otherwise, you risk England standing you out of Denmark, and it can be difficult for you to ensure that you get that square without Russian help. So, basically we are talking the Three Emperor's Alliance.

You should always let Russia take Sweden unless you are allied with England (or Western Triple). If you're allied against France against England, then you'll want Russia to aid you against England by pressuring Norway. If England and France are allied against you, you will need Russia's help desperately.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 24 Oct 2019, 21:19
by eaterofworlds
I'd be curious to see some games where Germany opened to Holland and soloed. I'm sure it's been done.

I love playing Germany because of its diplomatic leverage in 1901. Moving to Holland abandons a fair bit of soft power. If Russia doesn't have a reason to talk about Sweden, you have to work at building the relationship by other means. England's emotional response might view F Hol as more of a threat than F Den. For France to like the move, A Mun needs to be doing something flimsy - guarding Tyr, or worse, holding?

F Den creates tension with Russia, but the truth is that if the relationship is going to work at all, the players need to be ready to work through that tension. This is true even if Germany's default position is to let Russia have Sweden. In my experience Germany does more harm than good trying to put too many conditions on Russia at the outset. Russia may prefer to work with E/F to destroy a Germany that started out acting like A War was subject to German orders.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 01 Nov 2019, 22:46
by Zosimus
Well, you can look at https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=160207 but it's gunboat.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 04:02
by gsmx
There's a lot of variables that would come into play and i rarely have a preconceived notion as to if i'm going to let him have it or not, really depends on what my relationship is like with him and with the rest of the board. I don't tend to follow textbook definitions of "best" alliances and if i think the Russian player could be a good ally for me i'd certainly consider the option. That said, there are some instances where more often then not i'll let him have it.

1. Russia's odd man out in the east and letting him stay strong will slow down the pace of eastern progress. It's always nice to have your triangle determined sooner then the other wide of the board.

2. I need the friend. If England and France have chosen to attack me and i feel Russia is a credible friend then i'm most definitely going to further invest in that much needed friendship with an uncontested move into Sweden.

3. A good deal has been made. I've often taken the approach of agreeing to let Russia into Sweden on certain conditions, such as Stp NC fleet builds if i'm planning to attack England or agreement he moves onto Norway in 1902 and allows me to have Sweden at that time. This requires the player to be credible in his deal making, not always easy in 1901.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 08:48
by LordDwia
I can't think of too many situations as Germany where I wouldn't want to let Russia into Sweden. If he opened Mos -> StP of course I would consider the bounce, but even then I might not.

One situation would be if Austria opened to Bohemia(!) in the spring, and I was allied with France. In that situation, I would probably bounce Russia out of Sweden. To understand why... I'm not sure I could explain. But that's one situation where I would consider it.

Re: When to let Russia have Sweden?

PostPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 20:50
by gsmx
There’s a tonne of situations where you may not want him there.

If there’s a blatant Jugg or Eastern Triple, if Russia’s an unworkable or clearly dangerous player, if you’re in a central alliance and want to see Russia eliminated, if you’re in an alliance with England and have early ambitions to conquer Russia, if you’re in an alliance with France and don’t want to risk Russia assisting England, if Russia’s advanced towards Munich, if somebody you value a relationship with has specifically requested the bounce, etc, etc, etc...