How to get yourself stabbed...

What are your winning tactics? Kill them all? Discuss strategy for the classic and variant games using the classic map, or visit the sub-forums for the variant maps.
Forum rules
Strategy
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/view ... 30&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. When discussing strategy, reference should not be made to any active game. This section of the Forum is for general strategy discussion, not specific situations within games.
2. It follows that links, images, game name and/or number should not be added to a post if the game is active.
Posts which refer to a specific situation in an active game, or which link directly to an active game, are subject to editing or removal.

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby V » 05 Nov 2018, 16:05

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
V wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:The title and theme of this post is a bit victim-blamey. I'd say you might find better luck taking a "this is why I stab" tack than a "this is your fault and here's why" one.


Oh how sweet! PC meets Diplomacy stabbing :lol:

Nothing to do with PC, all to do with people skills. If you tell someone "hey, sorry, this was my thinking," chances are they're gonna be a lot more willing to listen to you later in the game if you need to work with them than if you tell them "hey, this was your fault, here's why."


Completely agree with your comments on how to approach the situation in game.
Just that “victim blaming” has become a catch phrase amongst the PC community, used to reprimand anyone who suggests something might have been their own fault. Your use of the phrase amused me reference a Diplomacy stab. My bad sense of humour got the better of me. That’s right it’s “people skills”.
Platinum Classicist
Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished.
V
 
Posts: 627
Joined: 04 May 2014, 21:28
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1718)
All-game rating: (1754)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby blazebbc » 05 Nov 2018, 17:22

Victim Blamey:
Absolutely. This is Diplomacy. People are going to get stabbed. If you put the seven best players on the planet in a game, some are going to get stabbed. Period.
However, stronger players tend to be stabbed far less often than weaker players. I posted a list of reasons that lead me to stab (when the timing is right, of course). In the past several weeks, I have had several opponents convince me to break alliances with them because of actions on that list - they threw away perfectly good alliances that I wanted to keep well into the game and found themselves facing elimination. I did not post this to "bash" those who get stabbed, but with the idea that those who are tired of being stabbed might evaluate their play and improve their game. "Blame the victim" is completely the wrong term. This is a game - you are not a "victim." If you suffered a fatal stab, you lost a game because you got outplayed. If the "victim" of frequent stabs does not want to keep getting stabbed, s/he should improve his/her play.

"Jerk":
If you think folks are "jerks" for stabbing you are SO in the wrong game.

"I don't do any of those things and yet I still get stabbed."
I have not looked up any of your stats or games. (Nor do I intend to.) However, if you get stabbed more freuqently that most, you are doing SOMETHING that leads to you having a knife in your back. To improve my play, I really like to take AAR's seriously. I would use those and ask your opponents why you ended up on the wrong end of a sharp knife.
Ally Extraordinaire
Intermational Medal of Honor Recipient
blazebbc
 
Posts: 201
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 07:09
Location: Seattle, WA
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1122)
All-game rating: (1132)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby blazebbc » 05 Nov 2018, 17:33

nanooktheeskimo wrote:The title and theme of this post is a bit victim-blamey. I'd say you might find better luck taking a "this is why I stab" tack than a "this is your fault and here's why" one.


In the context of a game, sure.
In a forum, not necessarily. If a player is getting stabbed more frequently than most, it has nothing to do with "me" as the author of the initial post, but with the person who gets stabbed. The one with the pin-cushion back needs to evaluate his/her play and why s/he keeps getting stabbed to improve - not diagnose my reason for stabbing....

As I type this, I'm thinking about situations in which I *really* wanted to work with somebody and tried to over the course of one or two years and then, due to issues on my list, gave up and stabbed them. Their response to me, "You were planning to stab me all along. I knew I couldn't trust you." (Or something similar.) They were unable to accept that their play forced my knife.
Ally Extraordinaire
Intermational Medal of Honor Recipient
blazebbc
 
Posts: 201
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 07:09
Location: Seattle, WA
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1122)
All-game rating: (1132)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 05 Nov 2018, 18:05

1) including here on the forum, you're more likely to get positive responses by framing it as "here are some reasons I stab," rather than as "here's why you people force me to stab you, I really had no choice." It may seem like PC or pointless semantics, but I promise you it's not. Of course you're welcome to frame it however you like, I'm just suggesting that if the goal is to have a healthy conversation about this topic (and it's a topic I really enjoy discussing), the way it's framed is important. If on the other hand it's meant to be more of an open and shut post, then ignore me and carry on!

2) I would contend that the responsibility for a stab always lie with the stabber. Yes, of course there are reasons you took the action to stab, and they may be justified reasons, but regardless of that I find it silly to say things along the line of "I was forced to stab player X." No, player X didn't force you to stab them, you had reasons to stab them and chose to.

Broadly though, I think if the point is to have discussion about this topic, it's going to be a healthier and more productive discussion if it's framed as "what are some things that lead you to stab another player" rather than the way it's currently being framed. Just my two cents, and as I said above, if the point is just to complain about behavior that annoys you, that's fine too, ignore this and carry on!
Platinum Classicist
(h/t lordelindel)

I am your (co-) Leader.

GM of WitA 7, WitA 8.

Come play face to face!

Need a forum game GM'ed? PM me!

Mod (but I'm normally not talking as one)
User avatar
nanooktheeskimo
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9946
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 19:52
Location: East TN
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1209
All-game rating: 1413
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 05 Nov 2018, 18:26

Anyways, to approach this as a conversation starter, since it's a topic I sometimes enjoy...

Going down the list:

1. Agreed, silence is hard to work with. Gotta give me something, and if you only have limited time that's fine as long as you give me a heads up, if someone drops off the face of the earth after good comms levels I'm more inclined to think they're not allied with me anymore...and even if they are, an unpredictable ally is barely better than an enemy.

2. This one is very game dependent for me. I do generally prefer risk-friendly partners who will run and gun with me, but sometimes you have to adapt your style to the board you're on.

3. This one is also pretty context dependent for me. If the orders lied about made sense to lie about, no harm no foul--for example, saying you'll pull a piece back from our border in the fall, but doing it in the spring instead. That's a pleasant surprise. However, it's really hard to work with someone you don't know what to expect from, so if orders are constantly being changed without warning, that's someone that I'm usually gonna have a hard time working with.

4. In an emerging theme, this one is also really context dependent for me. Having to convince someone of your trustworthiness turn after turn is exhausting...on the other hand, I'd rather an ally bring their concerns up to me rather than stew on them and let them grow into paranoia and an eventual stab. Better to deal with it head on and try to work it out than to let it fester.

5. This pretty much goes back to the being reliable thing--if I can count on knowing what you're doing, then you're someone I can work with, but if you're out there doing lord knows what, that's tough to work with. Basically, unpredictability is anathema. I will say though, sometimes an incompetent ally can work to your advantage, in some specific contexts, so I don't have a blanket rule there, it really depends on the rest of the board and the nature of their incompetence.

6. This one I'm a lot more forgiving of--if that's their communication style, it's their communication style. If it marks an abrupt and unexplained change from their normal style it's a huge red flag, but if it's just how they communicate...I'm not gonna hold that against them. As long as they can effectively communicate ideas and plans and reliably make the right moves, I don't care if they're writing two sentences or 8 paragraphs (actually, I probably prefer two good sentences to 8 paragraphs!). It seems unfair to me to expect everyone to communicate the same way I do, or to penalize them for having a different style.

7. I like snark, but that's just personal preference. I care much more about reliability than I do bedside manner, but yeah, there are a select few players that just aren't worth the time to deal with.
Platinum Classicist
(h/t lordelindel)

I am your (co-) Leader.

GM of WitA 7, WitA 8.

Come play face to face!

Need a forum game GM'ed? PM me!

Mod (but I'm normally not talking as one)
User avatar
nanooktheeskimo
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9946
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 19:52
Location: East TN
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1209
All-game rating: 1413
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby Jack007 » 05 Nov 2018, 19:36

If this topic would include reasons why one could get (not) stabbed in face-to-face games, too, then I would say...

eye-contact-is-overrated.jpg
eye-contact-is-overrated.jpg (158.42 KiB) Viewed 1280 times


8-)
Jack007 (xxxx.) unbanned for dubious reasons
Member of the Honorables
There is no greater solitude than the samurai's,
unless it be that of the tiger in the jungle… perhaps…
-bushido
User avatar
Jack007
Premium Member
 
Posts: 970
Joined: 08 Mar 2014, 17:34
Location: Switzerland (Interlaken) ⛵ Instagram @jack060856
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1426
All-game rating: 1688
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby David E. Cohen » 06 Nov 2018, 00:51

blazebbc wrote:This is Diplomacy. People are going to get stabbed. If you put the seven best players on the planet in a game, some are going to get stabbed


If you put the seven best players on the planet in a game, it is quite likely that ALL of them will be stabbed. More than once.

P.S. I want a chair in that game!
Play every game of Diplomacy as if it will be the last game of Diplomacy you will ever play.
User avatar
David E. Cohen
 
Posts: 439
Joined: 28 Jan 2008, 11:30
Location: Treading the Path to Diplo-Shambhala
Class: Diplomat
All-game rating: (1000)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 06 Nov 2018, 20:52

blazebbc wrote:I've had more than a few folks express anger, frustration, etc. after I have turned on them... Most of the time they are in denial that any of their actions could have led to the attack. A lot of players could really improve their games with a better understanding of why they were betrayed.

There's a simple answer to "why they were betrayed," which is: you decided to betray them. What you've listed are reasons you decided their loyalty wasn't worth keeping, but it was still your decision. This is a game about backstabbing; own your stabbiness.

blazebbc wrote:1. Silence. If you don't speak to me over a period time, especially when asked about a set of orders, I am going to presume that you have turned unfriendly. If I am making a choices as to whom I should put my trust, your silence has just done you in.

While I generally agree with the premise that quiet allies might be worth less than chatty ones, I've run into players for whom the length of "a period [of] time" is totally inconsistent.

Let's say we've just had a long conversation about orders, for instance, and we came to an agreement. Then some time later (often shortly before the deadline), you get paranoid and ask the same questions again, then complain when you don't get an answer. Or even worse, you don't even ask a question, you just message "I'm just confirming that I'm doing X," which does not actually contain a request for a response; don't come telling me that your last-minute decision to stab is somehow my fault.

Admit that you either got (1) paranoid or (2) greedy. Or (3) that it seemed like the best strategy for you at the time. Any of those is acceptable. Just don't try the whole abusive-boyfriend-gaslighting routine and make it into my fault. It's bullshit. What you were looking for is a pretext to attack that you can blame on someone else to make yourself feel better. It's far more honest to say, "It's a game, and because of X I decided to betray you instead of holding to my prior promises," and it's more likely to defuse the situation.

And frankly, if you (the reader of this post, not necessarily blazebbc specifically) use that mentality in your real life, whereby you blame the harm you do on the person harmed, then you are probably deluding yourself and hurting people that care about you.

blazebbc wrote:2. Refusal to actually do anything. I certainly understand a little bit of caution. However, this is not a risk-free game. If you are so scared to do anything that you don't want to join an attack, you will be the target of the attack.

I do agree that an ally that won't take any risks is probably not a worthwhile long-term ally, but again, this is your decision. Their lack of risk-taking made them a less useful or valuable ally in your eyes. The irony here is that your onetime ally might benefit from being more risk-averse, at least in regard to their assumptions about you.

blazebbc wrote:4. Complaining that you don't trust me.

I do agree that it's not a good idea to state how little you trust someone. If X clearly doesn't trust Y, after all, what does Y have to lose by betraying X? However, I do think there's a sort of trust-but-verify approach that can lead to an amicable and useful longterm alliance. If I request that you help me mutually bounce a space rather than simply hold with an otherwise useless unit, for instance, that's the "verify" part.

blazebbc wrote:6. Giving short one-liner replies to orders I suggest. If you are not making other suggestions or taking the time to read them, I know you do not have enough invested in our alliance to be trusted. A good ally reads suggestions and looks for ways to improve orders.

Sometimes what you send might already be in good shape, and I as a player would have suggested the same thing. Don't expect an essay where a "Yes, those look good," will do.
Lead Volunteer Developer & Forum Admin

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2483
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 1451
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby jay65536 » 06 Nov 2018, 20:55

David E. Cohen wrote:If you put the seven best players on the planet in a game, it is quite likely that ALL of them will be stabbed.


I used to agree with this. Now I'm not so sure.

I own a book called Scarne's Encyclopedia of Card Games. The last chapter talks about card tricks and cheating. Scarne asserts that when you get together a table full of great card cheats, none of them cheat. I love his quote explaining why--and I believe it is applicable to the quoted statement about Diplomacy.

"They do not, because they dare not."

I think if you got together the 7 best Diplomacy players in the world on one board, you wouldn't see that many stabs--because great players don't make bad stabs, nor do they allow good stabs. I suspect most of the game would unfold fairly straightforwardly.

To get back to the original thread topic, one thing to take away from it is the reverse perspective. It's not just about that list being things you should avoid doing. The other angle is, if you are in a game where someone else is displaying these behaviors, and you are continuing to trust them, you are very likely making a mistake by doing so. I have already, in 4 games, played with my fair share of people who have done things like this and then either expected I wouldn't notice, or else acted indignant when I told them I considered them unreliable or refused to follow through on plans with them. I suspect the prevalence of that behavior means there are many other people on here who don't consider those things red flags and allow themselves to be stabbed later by players who exhibit these behaviors as a warning sign.
jay65536
 
Posts: 427
Joined: 10 Sep 2016, 18:13
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1120
All-game rating: 1126
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: How to get yourself stabbed...

Postby ColonelApricot » 08 Nov 2018, 08:12

blazebbc wrote:"Jerk":
If you think folks are "jerks" for stabbing you are SO in the wrong game.


You jerk. :roll:
Dog of War in ToS
GRU of the Despicables in TTT
User avatar
ColonelApricot
Premium Member
 
Posts: 394
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 11:48
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1010
All-game rating: 1400
Timezone: GMT

PreviousNext

Return to Diplomacy Strategy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests