Turkey Alliance Options

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Turkey Alliance Options

Postby Aurelin » 29 Oct 2018, 01:47

They say Turkey’s the strongest country, and the stats certainly prove it. But why? It seems like the least interesting power with the fewest alliance options.

Both needing to control the Med, I/T doesn’t work because all the fleet potential is wasted etc. A/T is so bad it’s considered the “Impossible Alliance.” So a juggernaut really is Turkey’s only option, and even then, how many Russias want to face the wrath of England and Germany for daring to ally with Turkey? Good as its corner position is, I don’t know how Turkey can do so well if no one wants to ally. As Turkey, do you just hold off the Lepanto and hope Russia goes north?
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby Fatmo » 29 Oct 2018, 02:13

I’ve been and seen in I/Ts and A/Ts that were good for both. I/T is definitely more rare. I feel like A/T isn’t that uncommon among decent players. Turkey sticks to fleets. A/T really isn’t as unnatural as some people think as long as there is good communication.

Really, you’re playing the players. If another power feels like you are someone they want to work with, they ought to want to find a way to work with you. Even if Turkey doesn’t seem like the ideal ally on paper.

Really any of these can work as long as you’re also looking for another partner in the west, either to ally with you and your eastern partner, or to switch up and make into your next main alliance.

There aren’t really any easy or natural 2 ways in the east. Most natural feeling for me would be I/R all other things being equal.
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 29 Oct 2018, 05:11

FYI:
The stats prove nothing of the sort.

Russia and France come out in the lead in large sample sizes. Italy and Austria come at the back of the pack. The remaining three are squarely in the middle.
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby Charleroi » 29 Oct 2018, 07:06

Fatmo wrote:Really, you’re playing the players. If another power feels like you are someone they want to work with, they ought to want to find a way to work with you.


+1000

This is Diplomacy in shorthand.
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby mhsmith0 » 29 Oct 2018, 07:44

One of the nice things about playing Turkey is that you can potentially wait out pressure, as long as you can be friendly with one eastern power. Even the feared lepanto can be stymied if you can get France to sail towards Tunis or Germany to send an army or two towards the Balkans (so long as Russia is helping you instead of piling on)

In gunboat especially, this is a huge advantage, which is why turkey does so well in that format, particularly when it’s not a really high level game (where AI alliances are more common)
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby blazebbc » 29 Oct 2018, 20:44

Turkey is flexible. When I go into it, I try to get two of the other three powers in the south to go to war and have an alliance with the other. I don't care which of the three (Russia, Austria, Italy) is the ally as I figure my prospects are good however that pans out. It's more about having the right player as an ally than the right country.
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby jay65536 » 30 Oct 2018, 15:21

To show you that what you said in your OP isn't always true, take a look at this game:

https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=139117

I've only been on PD for almost 2 years, but this game had arguably the toughest lineup in the site's history. (This isn't a brag; I wasn't in it.) It shows 2 things relevant to this thread: first, that A/T isn't as impossible as you might think, and second, that Turkey is the kind of country that can be patient in the opening (he didn't get his 5th center until 1904).

That second point, along with Fatmo's point that you have to play the players, is really key. It's all well and good to say that all other things being equal, none of Turkey's neighbors should ally with her; but in practice, if they want to kill Turkey, they have to work together and have a strong, unified, coordinated attack. That's very hard to do in practice! Think about it this way:

1) For Italy to join an A/I/R, she is usually asked to play a Lepanto where she stays on 4 centers until at least 1903 (depending on how well Turkey defends).

2) For Austria to join an A/I/R, she has to be patient enough not to stab Italy while she's wide open in 1903, AND she has to let herself be surrounded by Italy and Russia after Turkey is dead.

3) For Russia to join an A/I/R, she has to build fleets in the south and hope that England and/or Germany leave her alone in the north, and hope that Austria doesn't put the knife in before Russia is able to build enough armies to defend herself.

Even if the 3 players go into the game trying to take out the Turk, which doesn't always happen, there is a lot of time for interpersonal dynamics and stab opportunities to get in the way. Basically, a good player playing Turkey can very often make it so that it's easier to get your centers somewhere other than from them.

Also, all of that aside, I'm firmly of the belief that any two countries can find common ground if they know where to look. I have seen I/T and A/T alliances that have done just fine. It all comes back to the fact that it's about the dynamics between players.
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Re: Turkey Alliance Options

Postby blazebbc » 30 Oct 2018, 17:03

I don't trust such stats... I have found that when the game is played with less experienced players, juggernauts are common and Italy constantly attacks Austria. England and France are likely to ally as well - though not as frequently as R/T. This is going to favor all the corner powers statistically. However, when stronger players are in the game. there are a lot more creative alliance combinations, including triple and secondary alliances. In fact, the more experienced the players at the table the more equal the powers become.

What is rarely discussed here (or in other strategy forums on other sites) is how to approach running these countries diplomatically. The secret to this game isn't really a secret: but the vast majority of players do not really get it: It's about "Diplomacy." Several folks have hinted at it here - "playing the players." You can't play the players if you don't really talk to them. You need to assess their abilities, temperment and intentions. You need to know how to stroke the right fears and now to encourage the right instincts. You need to learn what you can about the opposite side of the board and use it to your advantage. As Turkey, for instance, I'm talking to England about Norway. If I can get him to convoy his army there... I'm talking to Germany about bouncing in Sweden... I am in communication with France about bounces is Piedmont and controlling Italian navies. Etc. If I know I am going to ally with Austria, for instance, I might encourage Italy to attack Austria - but pass Italian movements to the Austrian. I might do something similar with Russia. Etc. All of this is done through dialogue. How successful any Turkish alliance will be completely depends on how the rest of the board bends around it.

If I am Turkey, I am exchanging at least five quality press messages with Russia, Austria, and Italy in the first turn and at least one or two with the other powers - often more. This allows me to size up the opposition and get a sense for what they really want to do. No beginning player can hide his/her lack of skill after that much exchange. Plus, it will be easy to determine of I have a neighbor who will be playing scared and never more or if I have a puppet. Experienced players will also struggle to hide their abilities. They will have competent replies. They will mention communication with other powers. Erratic players will show a lack of consistency with their messages. Lazy or disinterested players will have either no response or non-committal one-liners. Many players who plan to work against you cannot lie. Instead of wanting to commit to an attack, they will say, "I want to wait and see what happens." (Yes,some players just want to dally, too.) Very few players who wish to attack you will engage in such detailed exchanges, so you can often clearly identify your enemies before the first turn.


NoPunIn10Did wrote:FYI:
The stats prove nothing of the sort.

Russia and France come out in the lead in large sample sizes. Italy and Austria come at the back of the pack. The remaining three are squarely in the middle.
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