Turkey and Austria

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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Zosimus » 04 Jun 2018, 05:44

AKFD wrote:Oh cheese,

True. I have never seen a G/R alliance.

It's actually more impossible imo

Well just take a look at https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=120306 and you'll see a GR alliance that ended in a two-way draw.
GR is smooth sailing all the way.
Be more aggressive.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Zosimus » 04 Jun 2018, 05:48

jimbobicus wrote:
AKFD wrote:Oh cheese,

True. I have never seen a G/R alliance.

It's actually more impossible imo


I think G/R alliance can work in the short term at least. It's hard to get a 2 way G/R draw, but I think it's common to see 3 or 4 way draws involving both. My views on it are similar to A/T - it can be a good alliance for both players in the short term - for the first 5 years or so. If combined with a strong Italy as part of a RGI, it can also have long term success. RGI along with with RFI are my favourite 3 way alliances. Very good for creating positions where all 3 players can expand without stepping on each others toes and can lead to 3 way draw, or better if the participants then want to slog the endgame out.

My candidate for hardest alliance to make work is I/T. In my experience, if that forms, it's normally out of defensive necessity for one of the two - normally Italy. It doesn't have much by way of long term attacking potential.

It's not hard to reach a GR two-way draw at all. A simple look at http://uk.diplom.org/pouch/Zine/S2001M/ ... Draws.html shows the two-way draws. Therein we read:

"Smooth sailing: RT, GI, EI, AE, AG, ET, GT, AF, GR
"These 9 alliance pairs have stable 2-way draw positions that do not favor either side and do not require extensive center swaps...."
Be more aggressive.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby mhsmith0 » 04 Jun 2018, 06:05

Zosimus wrote:...

"Smooth sailing: RT, GI, EI, AE, AG, ET, GT, AF, GR
"These 9 alliance pairs have stable 2-way draw positions that do not favor either side and do not require extensive center swaps...."


I don't know that I'd quite go so far as to call it "smooth sailing", since losing St Petersburg is a bit rough on any Russian (fwiw, eyeballing the board of that draw makes me think that Russia had a substantial edge should it ever go towards a rush to 18 since Germany had a very weak claim on Vienna/Trieste, had no fleets anywhere near southern waters, and would be hard-pressed to launch a swift offensive in Scandinavia)

But it's far, far, easier to run that alliance productively than plenty of other possibilities on the board. Heck, in my recent PDL game as Italy I mashed Germany and Russia together to stymie an obvious EF alliance while I made myself busy getting rid of Turkey, and RIG would have been super easy to run had R/G wished to keep the relationship going (instead like many IR alliances [or at least like many IR alliances I've been a part of], it just evolved into the standardish FIR)

Admittedly having not deeply thought on it, I'd probably put in terms of ease of creating and having work early game and long term, in tiers...

Gold Tier - RT, GI, EI, ET, GT
Silver Tier - AE (hard to coordinate early), AG (when both grow, stab opportunities can occur, particularly when Austria is doing well), AF (hard to coordinate early), GR (stab opportunities will likely exist), FT (hard to coordinate early, particularly since success of one tends to be somewhat negatively associated w success of the other, since Russia [Turkey's enemy] helps hold down England, and England [Russia's enemy] helps hold down Russia), FI (debatably a gold tier alliance when run well, but stab opportunities do exist), IR (can steer into juggernaut 2wd with some effort, and very powerful against both A and T early game), FR (plenty of common interests even if 2wd may be hard), AR (lots of options for working together, and can knock out turkey and shift west when successful), AI (harder in late game to make work, but it works great early game and can do quite well through mid game too)

That silver tier is semi gut, and does exclude ER (I hear ER is workable but it's been hard to make work in my experience). Probably some I'm missing here, idk.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 04 Jun 2018, 18:37

Zosimus wrote:
AKFD wrote:Oh cheese,

True. I have never seen a G/R alliance.

It's actually more impossible imo

Well just take a look at https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=120306 and you'll see a GR alliance that ended in a two-way draw.
GR is smooth sailing all the way.


Smooth sailing because the other powers all accepted the draw... ;)
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby mhsmith0 » 04 Jun 2018, 21:05

In that particularly game, definitely.

GR overall, though... it can work out pretty decently i think? I tend to think it's easier to make GR work than ER, for instance, all the more so if you can arrange EF to fight each other (which is pretyt normal in most games i think?)
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Zosimus » 09 Jun 2018, 04:42

Never let it be said that I don't get two-way draws. I've had 2 or 3 of them.
Be more aggressive.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby greggybear » 12 Jun 2018, 18:57

mhsmith0 wrote:In that particularly game, definitely.

GR overall, though... it can work out pretty decently i think? I tend to think it's easier to make GR work than ER, for instance, all the more so if you can arrange EF to fight each other (which is pretyt normal in most games i think?)


Here ya go... this was a pretty high-level game where we managed to do a 2-way GR draw. Took a while, but we got there.

https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=129941
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby norlight » 16 Jul 2018, 21:17

greggybear wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:In that particularly game, definitely.

GR overall, though... it can work out pretty decently i think? I tend to think it's easier to make GR work than ER, for instance, all the more so if you can arrange EF to fight each other (which is pretyt normal in most games i think?)


Here ya go... this was a pretty high-level game where we managed to do a 2-way GR draw. Took a while, but we got there.

https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=129941


Aye, I remember this one. One of the worst games I played... :) It was a good experience for me, though, so ignorant of me thinking that I was such a good player and being crucified so masterfully :-)
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Enriador » 20 Jul 2018, 01:21

Austria/Turkey can surely work. Austria builds armies, Turkey builds fleets, both go forth in the road to happiness.

For me, the only "impossible" (not really, just very hard) alliance is Italy & Turkey. Both are natural naval powers bound to clash over Ionian Sea and the Balkans, in my opinion, and unlike Austria Italy cannot afford itself to just build one kind of unit.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby mhsmith0 » 20 Jul 2018, 01:44

Enriador wrote:Austria/Turkey can surely work. Austria builds armies, Turkey builds fleets, both go forth in the road to happiness.

For me, the only "impossible" (not really, just very hard) alliance is Italy & Turkey. Both are natural naval powers bound to clash over Ionian Sea and the Balkans, in my opinion, and unlike Austria Italy cannot afford itself to just build one kind of unit.


Austria/Turkey works pretty well in the following situations
1) You have a western ally and you're cool with the 3-way
2) You're turkey and plan on stabbing Austria

A/T breaks down primarily in a couple of ways
1) It's almost always really easy for Turkey to stab Austria and almost always really hard for Austria to stab Turkey (If you're Austria, to effectively stab Turkey you need to build fleets, but they're really far away from anywhere useful, and you can only build 1/turn)
2) It's really really easy for one or more Western powers to blockade MAO, and even if you totally swarm the continent, you can never break through to England or Scandinavia, so you're well behind where you can force everyone else into submission as an alliance


I/T is kind of interesting. I don't think it's at all an impossible alliance tbh, but like A/T, you're probably just accepting that it's a 3-way draw intention
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CAM ... 6kxan1cd2k
Turkey needs italian centers to solo
Italy needs Turkish centers to solo
Buuuuuuttt...
I/T can work great against Austria early, particularly if AR are fighting
From there Italy can head west and fight France (and it's much easier for Italy to break through MAO with fleet spamming than it is for Turkey since Italy gets there MUCH faster)
And Turkey can head north and fight Russia (and obviously for this to work Turkey needs ot spam army builds and avoid fleet builds)

Now, there's plenty of potential for one or the other to stab, but it's not like it can't work well. I ran I/T as Italy sometime last year and managed to do reasonably well for much of the game, including forcing MAO, and only ended up settling for the 4-way draw because Turkey kept stabbing me even when it didn't really benefit him *shrugs*

Turkey isn't my first choice ally as Italy, and Italy isn't my first choice ally as Turkey, but it can certainly work IMO.
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