A Workable Plan

What are your winning tactics? Kill them all? Discuss strategy for the classic and variant games using the classic map, or visit the sub-forums for the variant maps.
Forum rules
Strategy
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/view ... 30&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. When discussing strategy, reference should not be made to any active game. This section of the Forum is for general strategy discussion, not specific situations within games.
2. It follows that links, images, game name and/or number should not be added to a post if the game is active.
Posts which refer to a specific situation in an active game, or which link directly to an active game, are subject to editing or removal.

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby DQ » 21 Feb 2018, 14:26

LordJezza wrote:Although I agree with the commentators suggesting a people first approach, rather making broad strategies based on assumed knowledge, I would actually disagree with the premise of this strategy, that is, SCs on the board’s edge are more valuable than at the centre.


Conventional wisdom - and fancystats seem to back this up - is that having access to both edge and central SCs is what makes France and Russia so strong, and why it is more difficult for Turkey and England to achieve solo victories. Edge SCs are valuable as a resource that doesn't have to be defended, because the lines of combat are far away. Central SCs are (StPete excepted) where the 17 center stalemate lines are, and so they are disproportionately valuable _when trying to solo_.
Stab you soon!
User avatar
DQ
 
Posts: 355
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 14:29
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1062)
All-game rating: (1063)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby Big Gun » 21 Feb 2018, 16:56

I know stats can be misleading, but if we look at the list of solo victories in ranked games on PlayDip, Turkey leads by a mile, but England drops behind Germany:

TURKEY (3832)
RUSSIA (3430)
FRANCE (2923)
GERMANY (2903)
ENGLAND (2446)
AUSTRIA (2206)
ITALY (2023)

There's something to be said for the attractiveness of both edge SCs and central SCs, but you need a lot of both kinds to solo. Some players like to secure an edge of the board as elimination is less likely. It's a kind of self-carebearing strategy and if all you want is to survive or to be in on a multi-way draw then it often works, but makes for rather unexciting gaming. The more memorable games tend to be where there is constant squabbling over both the edge and central SCs and for the first few years no one's position is "safe".

Patton said "Battle is an orgy of disorder." - The best diplomacy games are just like that!
User avatar
Big Gun
Premium Member
 
Posts: 284
Joined: 21 Mar 2015, 17:48
Location: Shropshire, United Kingdom
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1492
All-game rating: 2215
Timezone: GMT

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby Nanook » 21 Feb 2018, 17:14

Big Gun wrote:I know stats can be misleading, but if we look at the list of solo victories in ranked games on PlayDip, Turkey leads by a mile, but England drops behind Germany:

TURKEY (3832)
RUSSIA (3430)
FRANCE (2923)
GERMANY (2903)
ENGLAND (2446)
AUSTRIA (2206)
ITALY (2023)

There's something to be said for the attractiveness of both edge SCs and central SCs, but you need a lot of both kinds to solo. Some players like to secure an edge of the board as elimination is less likely. It's a kind of self-carebearing strategy and if all you want is to survive or to be in on a multi-way draw then it often works, but makes for rather unexciting gaming. The more memorable games tend to be where there is constant squabbling over both the edge and central SCs and for the first few years no one's position is "safe".

Patton said "Battle is an orgy of disorder." - The best diplomacy games are just like that!

I believe those stats include gunboat, which can make them a bit misleading. Gunboat Turkey is easier to solo with than full comms Turkey, and that's doubly true in AoE. Stats that include those games can skew it a bit, if the conversation is limited to full comms games rather than gunboat games.
Platinum Classicist
(h/t lordelindel)

Admin
User avatar
Nanook
 
Posts: 11132
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 19:52
Location: Florida
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1209)
All-game rating: (1413)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby DQ » 21 Feb 2018, 20:07

nanooktheeskimo wrote: I believe those stats include gunboat, which can make them a bit misleading. Gunboat Turkey is easier to solo with than full comms Turkey, and that's doubly true in AoE. Stats that include those games can skew it a bit, if the conversation is limited to full comms games rather than gunboat games.


You guys have stats for .... Age of Empires? ;)

And Re: Turkey agreed, there is a great article out there somewhere about why Turkey should never solo. Too lazy to dig it up.
Stab you soon!
User avatar
DQ
 
Posts: 355
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 14:29
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1062)
All-game rating: (1063)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 21 Feb 2018, 21:16

DQ wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote: I believe those stats include gunboat, which can make them a bit misleading. Gunboat Turkey is easier to solo with than full comms Turkey, and that's doubly true in AoE. Stats that include those games can skew it a bit, if the conversation is limited to full comms games rather than gunboat games.


You guys have stats for .... Age of Empires? ;)

And Re: Turkey agreed, there is a great article out there somewhere about why Turkey should never solo. Too lazy to dig it up.


"Age of Empires" on this site is a variant where every power starts with one empty SC, and the first turn is a build. It's a lot of fun on the Versailles map in particular.
Forum Admin & New Variant Development Assistant

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2783
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby Riles » 22 Feb 2018, 07:36

Big Gun wrote:I know stats can be misleading, but if we look at the list of solo victories in ranked games on PlayDip, Turkey leads by a mile, but England drops behind Germany:

TURKEY (3832)
RUSSIA (3430)
FRANCE (2923)
GERMANY (2903)
ENGLAND (2446)
AUSTRIA (2206)
ITALY (2023)


How did you get that data? Is that kind of stuff exportable from the site?
Riles
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 25 Jan 2018, 06:14
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1164)
All-game rating: (1362)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby Big Gun » 22 Feb 2018, 09:52

Riles wrote:
Big Gun wrote:I know stats can be misleading, but if we look at the list of solo victories in ranked games on PlayDip, Turkey leads by a mile, but England drops behind Germany:

TURKEY (3832)
RUSSIA (3430)
FRANCE (2923)
GERMANY (2903)
ENGLAND (2446)
AUSTRIA (2206)
ITALY (2023)


How did you get that data? Is that kind of stuff exportable from the site?


Go to the stats tab and click on games:
https://www.playdiplomacy.com/stats.php?sub_page=5

There are also stats on the most successful 2-, 3- and 4-way alliance draws too, but if these include variants like gunboat and AoE I'm with nanook that they're not really representative as far as this discussion thread goes.

I agree with nopun that AoE on the Versailles map is lots of fun. Interestingly, the bigger map makes it more feasible to solo as a central power in the AoE version. Especially Czech has great prospects if paired with Italy or Poland. It's even possible to solo without a positioning on any of the four edges of the board, which would be extremely unlikely on the standard map. For that reason (and also of course due to the nature of the variant with the major/minor mash up) there tends to be more disorder on the Versailles board.

I wonder if the site can provide these stats purely based on standard dip? If the statistics are obscured by results from variants, their value is questionable.
User avatar
Big Gun
Premium Member
 
Posts: 284
Joined: 21 Mar 2015, 17:48
Location: Shropshire, United Kingdom
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1492
All-game rating: 2215
Timezone: GMT

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 22 Feb 2018, 18:01

Big Gun wrote:I wonder if the site can provide these stats purely based on standard dip? If the statistics are obscured by results from variants, their value is questionable.


So back some months ago, I was able to harvest a (mostly) random sample of ranked and unranked classic games that conform to the specifications required by the site's "Standard Rating."

Because I was using a web scraping service with limited (free) capacity, I could only get 178 games at the time. As such, I'd expect there to be a significant margin or error, but this should still be helpful to this discussion.

Largely, these stats are in line with other data collected about classic Diplomacy. France and Russia are top-tier. Italy & Austria are bottom-tier. Germany, Turkey, & England are all middle-tier.

Comparing this sample to larger historical samples from other sources, France is underperforming a bit, and England & Russia are each overperforming. However, I think that's all well within the expected margin of error for a sample this size.

Code: Select all
        Solo  2pd  3pd  4pd  5pd  6pd  7pd  Loss  Elim
Austria    8    5   15    8    0    0    1   141   104
England   14   11   23    4    0    0    1   125    64
France    18   10   22    6    0    0    1   121    66
Germany   10   10   23    9    0    0    1   125    89
Italy      5    7   15    4    0    0    1   146    79
Russia    24    8   18    4    0    0    1   123    84
Turkey    11    9   22    9    0    0    1   126    73

Totals:   90   30   46   11    0    0    1
Forum Admin & New Variant Development Assistant

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2783
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 22 Feb 2018, 18:11

And for comparison's sake, here's the stats from 232 different games of 1900 that confirm to the same standards (just with a different map).

Code: Select all
        Solo  2pd  3pd  4pd  5pd  6pd  7pd  Loss  Elim
Austria   15    5   33    6    2    1    1   169   103
England   16    8   27    6    2    1    1   171    73
France    17    6   29    7    2    0    1   170   111
Germany   29    7   41   10    1    1    1   142    61
Italy     20    6   35    6    0    1    1   163    93
Russia    13    4   34    8    1    1    1   170    92
Turkey    10    6   23    9    2    1    1   180    93

Totals:  120   21   74   13    2    1    1


The changes to 1900 weren't really all that drastic (compared to most variant maps), but they had a fairly dramatic impact on the 7 powers' balance.
Forum Admin & New Variant Development Assistant

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2783
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: A Workable Plan

Postby Zosimus » 27 Feb 2018, 15:10

Big Gun wrote:
Zosimus wrote:I know you're still pissed off about that game in which you were England and I was Russia, but seriously -- the game ended more than a year ago. Get over it.


Not at all. But I like it when you throw one of your legendary tantrums ;-)

Pot... Kettle... Black
Be more aggressive.
User avatar
Zosimus
 
Posts: 660
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 22:17
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1632)
All-game rating: (1665)
Timezone: GMT-5

PreviousNext

Return to Diplomacy Strategy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests