Studying "Grandmaster" Games

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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby Captainmeme » 08 Feb 2018, 17:05

This is Gunboat, not Full Press, but Swordsman3003 kept a journal during the highest stakes game of all time over on webDiplomacy, and it's the single greatest AAR/EoG I've ever seen. It's a long read - almost 200 pages - but it's absolutely worth it if you're looking to study how a top level gunboat player thinks.

You can find it here.
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby Captainmeme » 08 Feb 2018, 17:20

Riles wrote:
asudevil wrote:You can't see messages


Could this be something that is done in the future? Make a special game and put experienced (preferably talkative) players in a game and publish the private messages after the game ends? The players would know it going in so they know not to say anything too crazy. I think this could help teach new players how to manage communicating with everybody.


Also, this was done on webDiplomacy a while back - The Full Disclosure Game. It was a while ago so I don't know all of the players on the list, but I know that at least 4 of the 7 have been ranked in the site's top 10 at some point or another.
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby Zosimus » 08 Feb 2018, 17:31

Well, I'm not here to diss gunboat. I've just never played it.

In real Diplomacy you have to repeat the following steps until you win:

1. Have a workable plan.
2. Sell one or more allies on the plan.
3. Implement the plan.
4. Refine the plan.
5. Repeat

So if you are not winning at Diplomacy, you identify and improve weaknesses in one of those steps.

Do your plans suck? Get better ones.
Do you hoped-for allies end up allied against you? Get more persuasive.
Do you fail to implement your plan? Learn better tactics.
Do you stick with a plan or idea too long? Learn to adapt.
Be more aggressive.
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby DQ » 08 Feb 2018, 18:42

Zosimus wrote:Well, I'm not here to diss gunboat. I've just never played it.

In real Diplomacy you have to repeat the following steps until you win:

1. Have a workable plan.
2. Sell one or more allies on the plan.
3. Implement the plan.
4. Refine the plan.
5. Repeat

So if you are not winning at Diplomacy, you identify and improve weaknesses in one of those steps.

Do your plans suck? Get better ones.
Do you hoped-for allies end up allied against you? Get more persuasive.
Do you fail to implement your plan? Learn better tactics.
Do you stick with a plan or idea too long? Learn to adapt.


I've been working on these videos for years and he just .... posted it! :D
Stab you soon!
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby lb1785 » 08 Feb 2018, 18:59

Marking for future reference.
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby Mr.E » 08 Feb 2018, 20:43

I think you'll find viewing messages will always be unpopular among many players. Dip isn't chess, the diplomacy between players is key to a good game. And, while a good player will probably adapt how she plays Dip, and how she talks to other players in a game, based on what she's learned about those players, most won't want to give away trade secrets, how they achieve diplomatic success.
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby Riles » 09 Feb 2018, 07:35

Nibbler wrote:I think you'll find viewing messages will always be unpopular among many players. Dip isn't chess, the diplomacy between players is key to a good game. And, while a good player will probably adapt how she plays Dip, and how she talks to other players in a game, based on what she's learned about those players, most won't want to give away trade secrets, how they achieve diplomatic success.


I completely agree, that's why my idea was for an unusual event that only select volunteers would participate in. While I understand that some would want to play close to the chest, I believe there are others that would be willing to demonstrate how they play, especially for newer players.

Zosimus posted the basic outline of what a good player does. However, it can be real difficult for a newer player to even know which piece is their weak point in a certain game. If things go horribly wrong for a new player in a game, how would they know whether it was poor alliance management, a poor plan that drove allies away, a good plan executed badly, or if everything was going well but didn't get the needed adaptations to changing circumstances? Or was it just a losing situation that didn't have much chance? After all, the best players still get eliminated sometimes. Seeing how experienced players deal with varying circumstances may help novices see which aspect they could improve in most, but it's tough to judge that from AAR's alone. "Wow, that guy was planning the stab with someone across the map years before the stab happened, maybe I need to look further into the future than I normally do" for example.

Captainmeme wrote:Also, this was done on webDiplomacy a while back - The Full Disclosure Game. It was a while ago so I don't know all of the players on the list, but I know that at least 4 of the 7 have been ranked in the site's top 10 at some point or another.


Thank you! This is exactly the type of thing I was looking for.
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Re: Studying "Grandmaster" Games

Postby Zosimus » 09 Feb 2018, 19:11

I think there will always be resistance to how people sell others on their ideas in the Diplomacy game. However, there are many non-Diplomacy-related resources that can be tapped.

For example, take a look at http://www.lifehack.org/articles/commun ... ssful.html

It's not entirely adaptable, but a good portion of it is.
Be more aggressive.
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