Fleets vs. Armies

[Cliff Dancer]

Hey all,

I've been recently adding a bit to the forums, and trying to think of the game more from a chess perspective (studying the game off-board, reading, investing large portions of my life, etc.) to get to the next level.

I'd like to hear what some different perspective are, by power, on typical considerations for building fleets vs. armies. From my current understanding, here's what I typically try for:

England/Italy: build armies early as reasonable. Maybe get a fleet 1901, but your second build should be focused on army if you're going for an eventual solo. I see too many 5 fleet 1 army Englands, or 5 fleet 2 army Italys.
Austria: conversely to England, you need additional fleets to solo. Possibly as early as 1901, but likely not until later.
France: build as many fleets as reasonable. If you can defend with your original 2 armies, try to get up to 4 fleets 2 armies. You're going to want to attack England come 1903 probably, and you'll need at least 1 fleet South to keep Italy in check.
Germany: 1901 is typically 1 fleet 1 army, then I think it's pretty dependent on gameboard, but focused more towards armies.
Russia: Either north or south, you'll eventually need additional fleets to solo, but probably not both.
Turkey: Pretty balanced, but not more than 4 fleets, possibly 5, but probably not.

The above is definitely over-simplified, but hopefully not completely false? What do you think? What other considerations other than setting yourself up for an eventual solo?

~CliffDancer

[kaptkidd6]

I generally consider fleets a superior in support because they are less likely to have that support cut; and of course they can still convoy even if attacked by a single adversary, they must be dislodged for the convoy to be interrupted. (of course, the army still has to successfully disembark) However, armies have the advantage of being able to reach all supply centers and not being limited to the shorelines of the continent.

In that model, I generally consider England to be primarily a maritime power. As such, I generally expect a ratio of 2 fleets to every army for the first 3-5 years, with a higher ratio of armies after establishing dominance of the seas.

Italy and Turkey are more of a hybrid model, and depending on the situation in particular games, I usually will aim for a fairly even distribution of fleets to armies.

The remaining countries being more vulnerable to attack from the land, will generally tend closer to a ratio of 2 armies per fleet early in the game.

Of course this is merely a guideline, subject to the vagaries of individual situations and alliances in effect at the time.

[mhsmith0]

I'd tend to think that the builds depend in very large part on where you're going and who you're attacking or defending against.

Turkey:
Fleets anti-Italy
Armies anti-Austria/Russia

Turkey building mainly fleets is trying to ram through ION and possibly eventually Iberia.
Turkey building mainly armies is trying to ram through the Balkans, and then either westward towards Germany or northward towards Russia


Italy:
Fleets anti-Turkey and France
Armies anti-Austria/Germany

Italy building mainly fleets is friendly with at least one of Germany/Austria (or MAAAYBE England) and is pushing thorugh to Turkey and/or France
Italy building mainly armies is probably heading north, and is probably friendly with some combination of Turkey/Russia/France


Germany
Fleets anti-England
Armies anti-France/Russia

Germany building mainly fleets is going for England in the long term and sometimes short term
Germany building mainly armies is going west to France or east to Russia


France
Fleets anti-England/Italy
Armies anti-Germany

etc

probably Russia has more relevancy on WHERE things are being build compared to what, though a naval Russia is probably pretty friendly with Austria and an army-happy Russia is probably pretty friendly with Turkey
Austria is almost assured to be a land power, though spamming fleets is substantially anti-Italy
England I'm less sure of tbh, probably because it's a naval power in some isoliation, and probably is in large part a function of where its units are vs what they are

[Nanook]

Turkey is a good example of how dependent it is on what you want to do. Typically, Turkey either solos by getting to Iberia or to StP (occasionally to Munich, but Munich is a LONG ways away for Turkey). So if you're looking at ideal unit distribution for Turkey...well, if they're going to try and push through the Med and get to Iberia, then they need a lot of fleets. 6 to 7 fleets, in fact, if they want to hold stuff and have a supply chain back to their homeland. On the other hand, if Turkey is going to run an I/T and push up through Russia and/or the middle of the board, then they're looking at probably just two fleets and focusing on armies.

If you look at Austria, they can solo with just one, maybe two fleets. Germany can do it with just one or two. Russia needs a balance, France needs a balance. England can solo in the right circumstances with just two or three armies if they control the seas around Iberia or can make their way onto the Italian boot.

So it really just depends--builds are super important, because what you build says a lot about who you plan to work with. A Germany that builds fleets early is signaling they're fighting England, whereas a Germany that builds armies and forgoes a fleet build is signaling they're friends with England and either going for the Western Triple or against France.


For the most part there's no hard and fast "country X needs to focus on armies/fleets above all else" rule, it's much more dependent on who you're trying to work with than anything else.

[Chessplayer]

I just wanted to throw in my amateur opinion on the matter . In my limited experience, I think that fleets act as a first round invasion force, and are similar to the Howitzers of WWI. Continuing this anology, I would compare armies to the troops that follow in behind. The reason why I say this is that it makes sense to control the bodies of water around the place you want to invade and (soften up) the march the troops must make when you plan on storming the territory.

[Zosimus]

Generally speaking, armies are better than fleets. This doesn't mean, however, that I think that England would be thrilled to start with all armies. It depends on the situation.

England should have an equal number of armies and navies. Every other power should have more armies than navies. Austria should run about 70% armies. Italy and France should run around 60% armies.

[ColonelApricot]

One way to think about it is that only armies can occupy all supply centers whereas fleets can only occupy coastal supply. However fleets influence much greater areas compared to armies. Consider the North Sea or the Ionian Sea - occupation of which can have huge effect on the game.

[WHSeward]

There are only 2 western SCs that are not coastal and 5 eastern. So fleets can occupy 27 of the board's 34 SCs.

You only need 18 SCs to win.

In order to win most of the time you are going to want a balanced force composition.

[Zosimus]

Although it's true that there are a good number of coastal supply centers, that doesn't mean that you necessarily want fleets there. For example, if you're England, do you want to put an army into Kiel or a fleet? If you're Austria, you're never going to get a fleet into Kiel, only an army. The only country that wants fleets in Kiel is Germany.

Another example is Finland. Although both an army and a fleet can go there, you would much rather have an army there.

[Nanook]

Although it's true that there are a good number of coastal supply centers, that doesn't mean that you necessarily want fleets there. For example, if you're England, do you want to put an army into Kiel or a fleet? If you're Austria, you're never going to get a fleet into Kiel, only an army. The only country that wants fleets in Kiel is Germany.

Another example is Finland. Although both an army and a fleet can go there, you would much rather have an army there.

Actually...as England, I'd only want an army in Kiel long enough to force Munich, then I want a fleet there or moving through there to Baltic.