Russia for Experts

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Russia for Experts

Postby DirtyHarry » 03 Nov 2017, 17:45

Hello,

I've recently dug into the Zine articles on the diplomatic-pouch.org site and I've come across some very interesting stuff. In particular, I found this article called "Russia for Experts" written by Toby Harris.

http://www.diplomatic-pouch.org/Zine/W2 ... ussia.html

The strategy is that Russia forms a long term alliance with England. In S01: Russia moves: Mos -> St. Pete, St. Pete -> GoB and War -> Sil while England moves: Lon -> Eng, Lvp -> Yor and Edi -> Nth. Potentially, so far so good. Then Russia follows up in F02 with: St. Pete -> Nor (agreed upon with England), Sil -> Ber and Gob -> Bal. Good stuff for Russia, he secures Norway and has a powerful attack going against Germany.

But according the article, in F02, England should do this: Eng -> Bel (or Bre), Yor -> Den, Nth c Yor -> Den.

Huh? OK, if England gained EC in S01, he could potentially take Bel or Bre in F01. But what is not explained in the article is how Denmark would be open. Or is the assumption that the English move to Den might cause a bounce? If Germany opens Kie -> Den, Mun -> Ruh, Ber -> Kie, a relatively standard opening, then Den will not be open after S01, let alone F02.

I'm hoping one of our resident experts can chime in and possibly shed some light on this strategy. It seems like a really interesting way to play Russia if you are confident in your southern DMZs, but I can't see England agreeing to this opening.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby hedge trimmer » 03 Nov 2017, 18:04

I'm not an expert, but the assumption seems to be that Germany will want to bounce Russia out of Sweden (why wouldn't he since Russia started out by moving into Silesia) and thus move his fleet Den -> Swe, but Russia surprises him by moving to BAL instead.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby DirtyHarry » 03 Nov 2017, 18:46

Of course! Thank you, I feel kind of dumb now for not seeing "getting" that myself. Thanks Malachite

Any other impressions of the opening in general?
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby Zosimus » 04 Nov 2017, 05:47

I think the opening will work as long as England is on board and awake. It should be easy for England to approach Germany with offers of an alliance to start and then rave about how treacherous and evil Russia is for moving Moscow north on him. Then he slides into Denmark without a fuss.

It's an interesting and bold plan.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby el Swine » 06 Nov 2017, 15:25

If I'm playing England, no way this is happening.

It's not the short term cunning and cleverness of the opening (which I do love to see), it's the long term consequences. Broad Russian presence in Scandinavia means 2-3 fleets with time and space on their hands if Germany goes down fast. Can't exactly ferry the suckers down the Vistula River now can you.

I'd love to try it as a Russian player, it'd be sensational if it came off, but you'd have to pick your mark with the English player, and German for that matter.

My usual Russian approaches are either 1) Go after England with an F/G and open the Slingshot Juggernaught in the South, or 2) Minimal northern presence with Juggernaught assault on Austria.... but I'm toying with running a few games with straight out assault against Germany to test a few theories on power balance dynamics.

Those dynamics are - natural promotion of E/F alliance (the ol' - the neighbour is copping it in the neck, let's get our share and then roll the guy who's attacking him from the other side). Triggering early friction with Turkey through frustration of lack of progression (unless a strong A/I is forming to occupy him).
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby Zosimus » 13 Nov 2017, 04:20

For a long time I have maintained that any country could ally with any other and that it all depended on the diplomacy. Privately, however, I doubted that England and Russia could because Norway/St. Petersburg... it was all too shaky a situation. Now, at least, if I think that the diplomacy warrants it, I have a potential plan to offer.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby Cliff Dancer » 15 Nov 2017, 23:51

el Swine wrote:If I'm playing England, no way this is happening.

It's not the short term cunning and cleverness of the opening (which I do love to see), it's the long term consequences. Broad Russian presence in Scandinavia means 2-3 fleets with time and space on their hands if Germany goes down fast. Can't exactly ferry the suckers down the Vistula River now can you.


Well - mostly agree, but England can have a hard time getting land access to Europe early, and this just seems super interesting. I imagine a pre-requisite for this opening/alliance is that Russia does not build F STP. It will be extremely difficult to smooth things over with Germany after 1901, so BEL is highly preferable to BRE. It would also require smoothing over a rocky relationship with France after your Spring 1901 indiscretions in ENG.

And the more I'm thinking about it, the more I hate it. It would be OK if you had an unusually weak Russia, but any competent Russia who can steamroll Germany with England and make reasonable gains in the Balkans will easily outpace England to 18 SCs. Or if you had a Turkish/Austrian alliance, this could work well for England as well, but Russia will need to be slowed down from somewhere.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby Zosimus » 16 Nov 2017, 03:32

Personally, I disagree with the objections that Russia will steamroll things. We are assuming that Russia starts with F. Sevastopol - Black Sea (bounce) and then Russia takes Rumania with a fleet ASSUMING that he can get a friendly Austria to help him in, because it will be obvious that Turkey should play for Rumania to start. This means that Russia will find a Turkish fleet in the Black Sea and will be compelled to build in Sevastopol. Another fleet, perhaps? This will start an R-T war to the death.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 16 Nov 2017, 06:24

I've always thought that England and Russia can make really solid allies, and in fact are somewhat natural allies. If they get along well diplomatically, it makes life a lot easier for Russia because it essentially gives them another unit of force in Scandinavia, and for England it gives them the chance to kill Germany (who is outflanked by E/F/R) while keeping France's gains to a minimum, and then stab France.

There isn't a whole heck of a lot of incentive for England to snipe StP with a fleet--great, you got a dot, now where do you go? If you can put an army there, sure, but taking StP with a fleet isn't all that useful to England most of the time.
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Re: Russia for Experts

Postby Cliff Dancer » 19 Dec 2017, 22:30

Zosimus wrote:Personally, I disagree with the objections that Russia will steamroll things. We are assuming that Russia starts with F. Sevastopol - Black Sea (bounce) and then Russia takes Rumania with a fleet ASSUMING that he can get a friendly Austria to help him in, because it will be obvious that Turkey should play for Rumania to start. This means that Russia will find a Turkish fleet in the Black Sea and will be compelled to build in Sevastopol. Another fleet, perhaps? This will start an R-T war to the death.


Good point and hesitantly agree...
-With proper play by all players, then yes, it could probably work for England, but a weak Austria OR a weak Turkey, and Russia should have a pretty good time. If Austria doesn't move to ALB in the spring, GRE may be more tempting, if Russia can convince Italy at the same time to order TYR/VEN in the spring, if Russia can somehow manage to sell Turkey on a juggernaut. But then again same can be said about a weak France causing a pretty easy time for England.
-With the above, there's a potential for a 3-build season for Russia (NOR, SIL, RUM), and I would say relative likelihood for 1.7 builds. England could have 2 builds, but could easily be held to 1.

I've probably just seen a lot more lower level of play, and that favors Russia much higher than England since they gain momentum much faster.
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