The Fake Lepanto

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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby I Love Italy » 08 Nov 2016, 02:19

Carebear wrote:
I Love Italy wrote:
Carebear wrote:Used Key Lepanto first or second game here with complete unknown. We took it to two way draw.


Well, you're special, Carebear.

Ssshhh, not too loud. Wouldn't want Drumpf to make fun of me.


Make fun? The most fun I've heard from him was a hrumpf.
I have special eyes.
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby Pete the Great » 01 Sep 2020, 13:08

I was in a oldies game as Austria where Italy convinced me to try the Key Lepanto. I was fairly new to on-line Diplomacy at that time. We ended in a 3 way with England. Definitely not for the faint of heart for either player. I was on pins and needles through 1902 or 03. Once we got into Turkey and later Russia the shoe flipped and it was Italy who was a nervous wreck. However, we stayed with it and it worked.

Bottom line is any opening/alliance can work if:
1) Your willing to work to make it happen
2) You find the right person to work with
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby FloridaMan » 17 Oct 2020, 22:22

Pete the Great wrote:Bottom line is any opening/alliance can work if:
1) Your willing to work to make it happen
2) You find the right person to work with

This. I think both the Lepanto (the typical variant where Italy moves fleets East in order to convoy to Turkey or Syria) and the Key Lepanto (where Italy moves through Trieste) can work very very well.

The problems are that:
1) To defeat a strong Russian-Turkish alliance, you need very good coordination; and
2) A lot of players are just temperamentally very flighty and impatient, unwilling or unable to be disciplined for long enough to actually see this alliance through, since it won't usually net them instant gains.
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby condude1 » 19 Oct 2020, 19:04

FloridaMan wrote:2) A lot of players are just temperamentally very flighty and impatient, unwilling or unable to be disciplined for long enough to actually see this alliance through, since it won't usually net them instant gains.


I'll add to this that, in general, it works really well for Italy to just stab Austria. Moooost of the time, the expected value from just stealing the scs is higher than trying to go through with the alliance. It's not flighty or impatient, merely calculating.
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby FloridaMan » 19 Oct 2020, 22:22

condude1 wrote:I'll add to this that, in general, it works really well for Italy to just stab Austria. Moooost of the time, the expected value from just stealing the scs is higher than trying to go through with the alliance. It's not flighty or impatient, merely calculating.

I disagree, but of course, our experiences may be different. I've noticed a significant tendency for Italians who turn on Austria to, in turn, get eaten by the Juggernaut that everyone already knew was in existence. By killing off Austria, Italy tends to be eliminating its only ally.
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby condude1 » 21 Oct 2020, 07:45

FloridaMan wrote:
condude1 wrote:I'll add to this that, in general, it works really well for Italy to just stab Austria. Moooost of the time, the expected value from just stealing the scs is higher than trying to go through with the alliance. It's not flighty or impatient, merely calculating.

I disagree, but of course, our experiences may be different. I've noticed a significant tendency for Italians who turn on Austria to, in turn, get eaten by the Juggernaut that everyone already knew was in existence. By killing off Austria, Italy tends to be eliminating its only ally.


I guess it really depends on the board. Germany's an ally too, and a strong Italy and a Germany with all quiet on the Western Front could hold back a Juggernaut. It depends how totally Austria is fooled too - if Italy can take, say, Greece, Trieste and Vienna with a stab, it's easily worth it. If you can just get Trieste... not so much.

I think it's just super context dependant, and I was probably too generalizing with my initial comment.
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby FloridaMan » 21 Oct 2020, 15:21

condude1 wrote:I guess it really depends on the board. Germany's an ally too, and a strong Italy and a Germany with all quiet on the Western Front could hold back a Juggernaut. It depends how totally Austria is fooled too - if Italy can take, say, Greece, Trieste and Vienna with a stab, it's easily worth it. If you can just get Trieste... not so much.

Good points, all, I think. If you've been skillful enough as Italy to do all that, I should probably start taking notes on this stuff... :)
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Re: The Fake Lepanto

Postby condude1 » 21 Oct 2020, 20:09

FloridaMan wrote:
condude1 wrote:I guess it really depends on the board. Germany's an ally too, and a strong Italy and a Germany with all quiet on the Western Front could hold back a Juggernaut. It depends how totally Austria is fooled too - if Italy can take, say, Greece, Trieste and Vienna with a stab, it's easily worth it. If you can just get Trieste... not so much.

Good points, all, I think. If you've been skillful enough as Italy to do all that, I should probably start taking notes on this stuff... :)


Hey hey hey, I never said I'VE taken those centers - I'm actually pretty bad as Italy. Just saying that the stab in the Lepanto is reasonable in a lot of cases.
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