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Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 02 Sep 2015, 22:34
by senorita21
I just finished this game: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_ ... _id=105622

I was Italy allied with Turkey. We had played the previous game together not allied though but he expressed a desire to be in a game with again me so I created one and invited him (I only play in games I have created these days). I made it clear I would give nor ask for any quarter. Finding ourselves Italy and Turkey the alliance seemed natural. It quickly became clear that on destroying a hapless Russia and luckless Austria I was a mere junior Partner. The Western Triangle was a fight between England and France. It was clear - on doing the maths - that only Turkey could solo and it would not matter how 'nice' he was it was a demand of the game that a player solo and he would. I stabbed for the draw and gained two SCs from him and he gained two SCs anyway. He was still on double digits - 11 SCs. Of course, Turkey was all injured innocence but any player with 13 SCs as he would have had would stab his junior partner on 7 SCs for the chance to solo.

But I beat him to it. I stabbed for the draw, got England and France to resolve their differences and brought this baby home. This is the first time I have done this (I have not played much diplomacy and all of it here). Not much is said about stabbing for the draw so here is a little something.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 03 Sep 2015, 04:14
by ruffdove
I don't think you stabbed for the draw, you stabbed to prevent someone else soloing. It just happened to end in a draw. It's entirely possible that your stab could have developed into a true advantage allowing you to go for the solo yourself. Or your stab could have resulted in someone else soloing. As it happens, you came away with the draw. Nicely done.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 03 Sep 2015, 11:54
by senorita21
ruffdove wrote:I don't think you stabbed for the draw, you stabbed to prevent someone else soloing. It just happened to end in a draw. It's entirely possible that your stab could have developed into a true advantage allowing you to go for the solo yourself. Or your stab could have resulted in someone else soloing. As it happens, you came away with the draw. Nicely done.


Thanks for the reply.

Of course, anything is possible in diplomacy but as I assessed the situation it was drawish and so a draw was a good result.

I stabbed to prevent the solo which meant a draw. I was clear that an angry Turkey would be in my face for the rest of the game and England or France had zero chance of soloing. Even post stab, I did not think of soloing for myself because the situation did not allow it before or after the stab.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 03 Sep 2015, 16:52
by Jack007
Even if you had stabbed explicitly for the draw, it would be perfectly alright. The rules do allow this, and there is no objective reason why one shouldn't do so. I know, the trend is toward soloing as a preferred goal at the moment and here on playdiplomacy site, but this is only a matter of taste, a fashion even, and subject of changes every few years, forth and back. The dispute between drawers and soloists about who are the real dippers is as old as the game itself. No reason to feel minor for the ones or the others.

Regards..

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 20:28
by gsmx
Stabbing for a draw certainly can make sense in irreversable circumstances where you see a solo in reach of another player, but your problem really was letting it get that far. If you're in a well oiled alliance you should have used diplomatic influence to correct the lack of parity a long time sooner. Sometimes these things slip out of reach inadvertantly, perhaps one of your allies neighbors unexpectedly kingmakes him, but for the most part you have options. The distrance from 13 to 18 is still pretty big and there's generally a lot of hoops he has to jump through to get there unless the other players are just so exceptionally inexperienced and bad. Once you stab for the draw, that's often pretty much it and you've stuck a pin in that game with a less then exciting draw outcome. Always look at all options to see if there's a way to flip things into your favour and keep the game going.

Worth noting a stab isn't necessarily the end of things. Many a time i've had to make a bold move on an ally that was relatively justifyable and with the right personalities involved i was able to smooth things over and possibly even make the alliance all the stronger for it. Sometimes the best and most lucrative blindsides come out of broken alliance that are instantly reconciled since the other players almost never see it coming which creates a lot of openings. But other times players take stabs super personally and the bridge is burnt. I dont' recommend the "ask for forgiveness over permission" approach for majority of the time, but sometimes it's just the only way to protect your interests.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 04:11
by senorita21
gsmx wrote:Stabbing for a draw certainly can make sense in irreversable circumstances where you see a solo in reach of another player, but your problem really was letting it get that far. If you're in a well oiled alliance you should have used diplomatic influence to correct the lack of parity a long time sooner. Sometimes these things slip out of reach inadvertantly, perhaps one of your allies neighbors unexpectedly kingmakes him, but for the most part you have options. The distrance from 13 to 18 is still pretty big and there's generally a lot of hoops he has to jump through to get there unless the other players are just so exceptionally inexperienced and bad. Once you stab for the draw, that's often pretty much it and you've stuck a pin in that game with a less then exciting draw outcome. Always look at all options to see if there's a way to flip things into your favour and keep the game going.

Worth noting a stab isn't necessarily the end of things. Many a time i've had to make a bold move on an ally that was relatively justifyable and with the right personalities involved i was able to smooth things over and possibly even make the alliance all the stronger for it. Sometimes the best and most lucrative blindsides come out of broken alliance that are instantly reconciled since the other players almost never see it coming which creates a lot of openings. But other times players take stabs super personally and the bridge is burnt. I dont' recommend the "ask for forgiveness over permission" approach for majority of the time, but sometimes it's just the only way to protect your interests.


I cannot understand why I have never before commented upon the sublimity that is gsmx's post. It shows an understanding leap years beyond mine.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 12 Nov 2016, 08:51
by Octavious
I cannot understand why I have never before commented upon the sublimity that is gsmx's post. It shows an understanding leap years beyond mine


This site is too damned respectful of its elders :P . Not to say gsmx isn't a decent enough player, as he clearly is, but the idea that there's a diplomacy elite who are masters of some secret diplomatic arts is poppycock.

As soon as you start believing that the other guy is significantly better than you you've lost the game. You allow fear to dictate your actions. You stab too early, terrified that it's the only way to stop a nonexistent master plan, or you don't stab at all, convinced that there's no way you can pull it off. There is no leap year gap in understanding. The only gap of note is that of confidence.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 12 Nov 2016, 14:33
by Nanook
Octavious wrote:There is no leap year gap in understanding. The only gap of note is that of confidence.

I agree with most of your statement in principle, but would quibble a little bit with this part. Some people have an innate grasp of or intuitive feel for the game, call it what you will, but for some it's a more natural understanding or feel for the game, while for others it takes a lot more thought and effort to reach the same level of understanding. I'm not saying one is better than the other or that people who grasp it easily don't work or put effort into the game to be good, just that understanding comes easier to some than to others.

I do agree though, that with enough confidence and effort, most people that want to be good at diplomacy, can be good at diplomacy.

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 10:47
by gsmx
Octavious wrote:
I cannot understand why I have never before commented upon the sublimity that is gsmx's post. It shows an understanding leap years beyond mine


This site is too damned respectful of its elders :P . Not to say gsmx isn't a decent enough player, as he clearly is, but the idea that there's a diplomacy elite who are masters of some secret diplomatic arts is poppycock.

Awww "decent enough". Just admitting that much must have been hard for you to type. ;)

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 15:15
by Octavious
Not at all. I'm a great believer in credit where credit's due. A petty, crass individual may gain enjoyment from talking others down, but if I come across a player with above average skill I will come straight out and say that they are indeed above average.

You are easily, easily, amongst the top 200 players I've encountered in the past couple of years, and shame on anyone who suggests otherwise.