Russia No Build

What are your winning tactics? Kill them all? Discuss strategy for the classic and variant games using the classic map, or visit the sub-forums for the variant maps.
Forum rules
Strategy
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/view ... 30&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. When discussing strategy, reference should not be made to any active game. This section of the Forum is for general strategy discussion, not specific situations within games.
2. It follows that links, images, game name and/or number should not be added to a post if the game is active.
Posts which refer to a specific situation in an active game, or which link directly to an active game, are subject to editing or removal.

Russia No Build

Postby NOS482 » 11 Feb 2014, 01:25

Folks and Fellow Dippers,

Greetings.

I would like to discuss an over arching strat I call "The Russia No Build". In summary it is the goal of making sure Russia gets "0" Builds the first year of a classic game. 8-)

First, let us look at the mechanics:
*Austria must bounce/take RUM in Spring.
*Austria or Turkey bounce take RUM in Fall. (This will require A/T at least trying to "play nice".) ;)
*Germany bounce/take SWE in Fall.
*England bounce/take NOR in Fall.

The beauty of this is that on the surface, these all look like very traditional openings for all the anti Russian aggressors. Further, in some instances, particularly with RUM, it even suggests hostility on the part of Austria and Turkey. (This may give Russia a false sense of hope...) ;)

The politics...
1) Whomever of the A/E/G/T suggests this, it must be understood that Turkey is the least likely to convince the others to follow through. Why? Because it is so obvious that Turkey wants Russia out. And Austria is usually a primary or the next target of Turkey which can complicate negotiations. Austria has the same "desperate" motives, but does not have the Edge Power safety Turkey has, so Austria's pleads are about as believable, but also has the stigma of saying anything to survive. So, this strat is often best proposed by Germany or England. The instigator of this gambit must be willing to message. Message a lot. And to act as an arbiter between those who do not trust the opening. (E/G? A/T? "Please guys, just give me the 1 year. It will be worth it. 1 year is all I am asking...")
2)The next hurdle is convincing all concerned to follow through with it, while letting them have their individual agendas intact. To this end I say play simultaneously on their greed, fear and hope.
*Point out that Russia starts with 4 while everybody only has 3. "Why should Russia start with an advantage?"
*Point out that a "Russia No Build" for year 1 ensures everybody a Build.
*Point out that the moves look traditional, so they can with some amount of "honesty" still deal with Russia as though nothing were amiss. :lol:
*Suggest that working together in this endeavor paves the way for future alliances and coordination. E/G, A/T, E/T being possible alliance constellations.
*Note to all concerned that by crippling Russia from turn 1, that every member involved in the conspiracy reduces potential threats by 1 entire front. :)
*Suggest that you don't have to stay hostile to Russia past the first year, but that if you do go forward with negotiations afterwards, you will be doing it from a position of strength. :)
*Play on their greed and note that Russia has 4 SCs, and that their are 4 members of the anti Russian Coalition. (And wouldn't Germany like SWE besides DEN anyway...?) "We can split them evenly," could be a persuasive argument. (This is prolly not possible in practice... Who gets MOS/WAR, but it might be a good argument for England, Turkey or noobs...) :geek:
*Press the challenge of surviving Early Game into Middle Game. "If somebody has to go, why should it be one of A/E/G/T? Why not Russia instead?" :geek:
*All parties should conduct normal diplomacy with Italy and France as though there were not a "Russia No Build" conspiracy in play. This will lessen the suspicions of what is really happening, reduce the chance of it leaking to Russia, and give one a "Plan B" if this "Plan A" fails.
*When messaging with Russia... Tell him whatever you want. You can even tell him what the others are doing, so long as you do not hint at conspiracy. Russia will be expecting traditional openings and enemies. ;) You will not be telling him anything he does't know. But, in truth, he has no idea to the extent of what is being done to him. (Turkey: "Hey I hear Austria is going to bounce you in RUM. What are you gonna do about it?" LOL!) He will note it, think most of it is lies or provocation. He won't suspect how much this is going to hurt. 8-)
*Lastly, the mega alliance. With A/E/G/T working together from the onset, the other nations will be facing a 4:3 alliance, with the "3" having a cripple in their midst. (And Italy wondering "WTF just happened?" :o ) This plays is synergetic with the Early Game to Middle Game transition mentioned above.

I have instigated and played out this gambit often. Very often. And it works. Esp if there are new or inexperienced folks involved. (Or a particularly trusting Russian... LOL!) :lol: Indeed, I have been successful enough with it that I have nearly always made it to End Game when it was enacted. And have won many solos with it if the rest of the coalition are not up to snuff. ;)

People have often said that Russia is not 1 big power, but 2 small ones. I would suggest that Russia, if this gambit plays out, is neither. He is a pile of Neutral SCs waiting to be grabbed when he "Surrenders" or NMRs out from his hopeless situation. :twisted: Sure it is an ugly way to win. But who cares... Not the folks that are planting flags on Russian SCs and clearing a front for the entire Early Game. And what DIP player doesn't want a secure Early Game? ;)

Cheers!
Last edited by NOS482 on 26 Feb 2014, 23:13, edited 2 times in total.
That which does not destroy us, makes us stranger (and leaves scars).
User avatar
NOS482
 
Posts: 129
Joined: 15 Aug 2010, 03:46
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1529)
All-game rating: (1650)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Russia No Build

Postby Pagane » 11 Feb 2014, 05:17

As a primarily Russian player, I cringe at the havoc that this would cause. Russia isn't in so much of a delicate situation early-game as he is in TWO (or arguably THREE) delicate situations at once. While that's a disadvantage, the upside is that, statistically, SOMETHING will go in your favor. A coordinated conspiracy to block you in 1901 is a Russian player's worst nightmare.

Granted, with some skilled diplomacy you can exploit the fact that an E/G/A/T alliance against you isn't exactly built on bedrock.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

Previously known as Santiago Matamoros.
User avatar
Pagane
 
Posts: 596
Joined: 04 Nov 2013, 01:59
Location: Wine Country, Virginia
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1079)
All-game rating: (1085)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Russia No Build

Postby marsman57 » 11 Feb 2014, 06:39

It is strategies like this that make me happy that I play online primarily. In real life, you are the one eating all the cheetos while everyone else plays a game and you sit for the next 3 hours waiting for your ride home to finish. ;)
marsman57
 
Posts: 1473
Joined: 05 Oct 2009, 21:42
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1118)
All-game rating: (1128)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Russia No Build

Postby Carebear » 11 Feb 2014, 07:48

marsman57 wrote:It is strategies like this that make me happy that I play online primarily. In real life, you are the one eating all the cheetos while everyone else plays a game and you sit for the next 3 hours waiting for your ride home to finish. ;)

If the death is early enough, six hours waiting...
You can have my last supply center, when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Spam Ambassador Wannabe

Officially Sanctioned Site Gadfly (meaning the negative kind of sanction)
User avatar
Carebear
 
Posts: 2389
Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 04:26
Location: In the fingerhold
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1573)
All-game rating: (1589)
Timezone: GMT+8

Re: Russia No Build

Postby NOS482 » 11 Feb 2014, 22:18

Friends, Oh yes, this is an ugly strat. But what successful stab isn't? But, admittedly, I would hate to be on the receiving end of this one.
That which does not destroy us, makes us stranger (and leaves scars).
User avatar
NOS482
 
Posts: 129
Joined: 15 Aug 2010, 03:46
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1529)
All-game rating: (1650)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Russia No Build

Postby Carebear » 12 Feb 2014, 01:29

NOS482 wrote:Friends, Oh yes, this is an ugly strat. But what successful stab isn't? But, admittedly, I would hate to be on the receiving end of this one.

That would be ironic if you just started a game, you ended up playing Russia, and the other players in the game seeing this forum post used this strategy against you.
You can have my last supply center, when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Spam Ambassador Wannabe

Officially Sanctioned Site Gadfly (meaning the negative kind of sanction)
User avatar
Carebear
 
Posts: 2389
Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 04:26
Location: In the fingerhold
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1573)
All-game rating: (1589)
Timezone: GMT+8

Re: Russia No Build

Postby CPiGuy » 12 Feb 2014, 15:13

Why does Norway even need to be covered?
CPiGuy
 
Posts: 48
Joined: 03 Jan 2013, 03:17
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (957)
All-game rating: (960)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Russia No Build

Postby NOS482 » 12 Feb 2014, 19:46

NOR has to be covered in the unlikely event of Russia:

*STP(sc)-GOB-SWE
*MOS-STP-NOR

Meanwhile England is now facing a bounce in NOR while Germany is facing it in SWE. :geek:

Admitted it isn't traditional and can be dangerous for Russia to do this as it makes enemies in the North early on... but the English response ensures the bounce and the primary goal: Russia gets 0 Builds. ;)

And supposedly Russia doesn't know that the enemies he is making by a full push North, are ALREADY enemies. So England and Germany can, with out tipping their diplomatic hand to France, Italy or Russia, that they are in fact the true villains. They can point to their traditional openings and say, "Look, Russia is the aggressor!" And then the conspiracy continues as Austria and Turkey continue to dog pile on a Russia that has vacated the South. Muwahahaha! :twisted:
That which does not destroy us, makes us stranger (and leaves scars).
User avatar
NOS482
 
Posts: 129
Joined: 15 Aug 2010, 03:46
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1529)
All-game rating: (1650)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Russia No Build

Postby Carebear » 13 Feb 2014, 04:39

What benefit would it be to France or Italy to be proponents of this coordinated Opening?

I wonder; if I were to start a new game and learn I was France, I might be a heavy proponent. It gets both England and Germany heading East early leaving me alone to collect my normal Iberian builds. Both England and Germany don't get any immediate growth from this. I can then potentially choose to work with England or Germany against the other before they both can really profit from this opening. Further, whichever one I work with, I bet we could get Russia to join the stab out of simple self-preservation.

Is this a reasonable France position in the proposed opening or are there other subtleties I have missed?
You can have my last supply center, when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Spam Ambassador Wannabe

Officially Sanctioned Site Gadfly (meaning the negative kind of sanction)
User avatar
Carebear
 
Posts: 2389
Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 04:26
Location: In the fingerhold
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1573)
All-game rating: (1589)
Timezone: GMT+8

Re: Russia No Build

Postby Pagane » 13 Feb 2014, 04:50

England and Germany each only need to devote one fleet to the plan in 1901. This leaves England with a potential Belgium convoy play and Germany with two armies able to drift west towards France and the Low countries. The 4-way conspiracy doesn't require any country to devote ALL of their resources towards Russia, and in fact allows for some pretty traditional openings from each. I can't see France or Italy necessarily benefiting from this at all, and the fact that all 4 are working in tandem against Russia opens the possibility of all 4 turning on France and Italy as well.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

Previously known as Santiago Matamoros.
User avatar
Pagane
 
Posts: 596
Joined: 04 Nov 2013, 01:59
Location: Wine Country, Virginia
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1079)
All-game rating: (1085)
Timezone: GMT

Next

Return to Diplomacy Strategy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests