Retreating fleets

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Retreating fleets

Postby Overzealousness » 16 Jun 2020, 03:15

When two opposing fleets retreat to the same place,,,,who gets it?
It was uncontested but it is owned by one of the players,
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby Solar Flare » 16 Jun 2020, 04:03

they are both destroyed
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby Charleroi » 16 Jun 2020, 04:23

In any contested retreat (where two units attempt to retreat to the same province) both units are destroyed. "Ownership" of the province is not relevant during a retreat phase.

If a unit retreats into an open supply center in a fall retreat phase, that power will take possession of the supply phase. But the allegiance of an unoccupied supply center has no bearing on which units can retreat there - in short, any unit can retreat there so long as the space is vacant and the retreat is not contested.
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby Pops2112 » 16 Jun 2020, 17:11

For pedants out there, add to @Charleroi’s answer, “unless the space is vacant due to a ‘bounce’ that same turn”.

A unit cannot retreat to an adjacent empty territory if the reason it’s empty is because there has just been a ‘bounce’ for it. Also, of course - for pedantry on pedantry - a unit cannot retreat to the territory from which it was successfully attacked. I haven’t been playing online for long enough - or perhaps I just don’t have to retreat very often :lol: 8-) ?? - to know if PlayDip lets you enter such self-destructive bad orders then destroys your unit if you do, but I assume it does since suffering consequences for messing up orders is part of the game.
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby David E. Cohen » 16 Jun 2020, 17:29

Pops2112 wrote:Also, of course - for pedantry on pedantry - a unit cannot retreat to the territory from which it was successfully attacked.


Actually, that is not as clear cut as it may seem. Two units may exchange places if one or both are convoyed. The rulebook is silent as to whether a unit may retreat to the province from which its attacker originated, if the attacker was convoyed. If otherwise legal, I personally would rule such a retreat permissible, the simple rule of thumb being if you could have moved there successfully, you can retreat there.
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby WHSeward » 16 Jun 2020, 18:18

To the esteemed Mr. Cohen, I must respectfully disagree. The rules are clear cut in this case. More important for PlayDippers, if you try it on our adjudicator, the retreating unit will be destroyed for making an illegal retreat.

Retreating to where the unit came from is specifically prohibited. Full stop. No ambiguity.

Those that want to allow the retreat, have to read read some ambiguity into that rule. The only way to do so is to argue "from which the attacker came" is not the same as "where it originated." That is not a reasonable reading. It also creates a much worse problem. Consider this case:

ITA F TyS c Rom - Nap
ITA A Rom - Nap

TUR A Apu - Rome
TUR A Nap s Apu - Rom

If you want to say that the convoyed attack did not come "from Rom", then do you say that the support from Apu is cut in this case? After all, if the attack wasn't coming from Rom so you could retreat there, then this cut is no longer coming from Rom, so it should work too. And glory be, we have created a case where 1 unit can stop the attack of 2. Nonsense.

The convoy exception for switching places is an exception. It is limited in scope. It does not allow retreats into where attacks came from, nor does it allow a unit to cut the support on an attack on itself. It only allows units to switch places in movement phases.
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby David E. Cohen » 16 Jun 2020, 18:31

Hello Mr. Seward. I disagree with your disagreement. ;)

I did not say that this was a clear cut case. The rulebook is just silent. I just come down in favor of consistency as to movement and retreat in this instance.
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby Pops2112 » 17 Jun 2020, 05:58

Enjoyable exchange of views unintentionally provoked by my initial post in this thread.

FWIW, as an oldie but goodie still very fond of his c.1980 Gibsons boxed game, I side 100% with Mr Seward on this one. To quote the exact words of the game rule: “A unit may not retreat to the area from which it’s attacker came.” There is no ambiguity there. In a successful attack by an Army unit arriving via convoy, that Army is the only attacker, not the convoying Fleet(s) or any unit(s) supporting the attack. So there cannot be a retreat by the defeated unit to the territory from which the successful Army departed via convoy.

Mr Cohen’s suggestion, therefore, is not, I think, a possible interpretation of an ambiguous top rule, but a proposal to change the rules: and IMHO (sorry) not a good idea either.
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Re: Retreating fleets

Postby David E. Cohen » 27 Jun 2020, 19:02

I am not arguing against the plain text of the retreat rule. There is also the plain text of the rule stating that two units can exchange places if one or both are convoyed, which is also specifically stated to be an exception to the general rule that two units can't exchange places. This rule is not specifically limited to the movement phase in the text. I am not saying that it is a slam dunk. This is not a case of an ambiguous rule--I misstated my position in my last email when I said the rulebook was silent. This is actually one of a number of cases where two rules are in conflict, which conflict is unresolved in the rulebook.


P.S. Mr. Cohen is my father. He does not play Diplomacy. :lol:
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