Why can we negotiate during retreat/build phases?

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Re: Why can we negotiate during retreat/build phases?

Postby UM85 » 05 Sep 2019, 18:35

Dipsy pretty much hits the nail squarely on the head with his response. At its core, the on-line game is a little different than the original board game.

One further observation, while the PlayDip Live game (which is the closest equivalent to F2F in on-line world) does permit negotiations during Build and Retreat, the phases are so short as to make actual negotiations very challenging. You can send a message with your thoughts and maybe get a reply but that is about it. There really is no time to iron out disagreements.
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Re: Why can we negotiate during retreat/build phases?

Postby Strategus » 05 Sep 2019, 19:14

But we have lots of options. Build anywhere, FoW, etc. So another option for people setting up games is not a bad thing. It offers choice. Especially important for people it is important for.
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Re: Why can we negotiate during retreat/build phases?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 05 Sep 2019, 22:31

super_dipsy wrote:I'm sorry, but I do not understand that point.

If we have a retreat phase, and one player who has a retreat is very busy, he/she may not get their retreat in much before the deadline. It makes no difference at all whether we solve the 'submitted but not finalized' problem, because the order was never submitted anyway. Also (and I think this is more common), many players I know do not like to finalize, because then they may get shocked by a new turn running away from them. For example, if I am playing 24 hour turns, I know that if I am rather busy I have no risk of missing a deadline provided I check each day. I can therefore time my involvement (with a few checks) so I can maximize the time I have available to negotiate. I can't control this if I have no retreats or builds/destroys to make, but if I DO then I can ensure some level of predictabaility instead of potentially coming in to find there is only an hour left fo me to negotiate because the turn progressed rapidly.

In the scenario you describe, I feel you'd be better served by just playing with fixed deadlines. If you're going to submit-but-not-finalize every turn, and you expect others to do the same, then you're already playing with fixed deadlines.

In a hypothetical "rulebook press" scenario where the ability to submit-but-not-finalize was taken away, some shift in predictability would be sacrificed for the sake of having those phases move along much more quickly. This was definitely the case in any rulebook press game that I've played on other platforms. As a result, you can set up game deadlines with greater padding in each phase than you'd normally include because you know that most of the time the retreats & builds won't take up their full amounts.

That was certainly the case for the PlayDip playtest of Canton we ran over on vDip. While all phases were 48 hours in length, with no processing on weekends, it was rare that a retreat or build phase lasted even a full 24 hours. Many barely lasted 12 hours. Taking away the ability to finalize was key to getting people to just make a damn decision and move along. We could have even made phases last 3 days to give us more time for orders negotiations.

The fundamental problem with "finalize" as it stands today is that it provides the illusion that phases might go by faster, when the reality is that so many people in those games don't finalize at all. Sometimes this is for scheduling reasons, and sometimes it's for paranoia that they might miss some important press that would change their mind, even for retreat phases where the choice is crystal clear. Occasionally a retreat or build will go by faster, but that's not been the norm in my experience, at least for 7p or 10p games.

To be clear, I wouldn't want to take away the ability to not finalize builds and retreats for any phase in which negotiations are ongoing. And I would always want the site to have an option to set up games to not accelerate builds and retreats, since some people do currently rely on current functionality.

It's why, when I'm GMing PBF or PBEM games, I tell my players that I process retreats as soon as I have them all submitted. Otherwise, there's always at least one retreating player that sends them as "provisional" (a.k.a. not finalized), and the turns end up dragging on longer than it would otherwise.
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Re: Why can we negotiate during retreat/build phases?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 05 Sep 2019, 22:38

Strategus wrote:But we have lots of options. Build anywhere, FoW, etc. So another option for people setting up games is not a bad thing. It offers choice. Especially important for people it is important for.

There is something to be said regarding options that people think they want, but in practice, make the game less enjoyable overall.

Under our current interface, having negotiations nixed during retreats and builds while those phases would still frequently last for their full lengths might yield an undesirable result (one that players might not even realize until they're mid-game and experiencing it).

Maybe I'm overstating the case, but it's the submit-is-always-finalize mechanic for retreats and builds on other sites that makes Rulebook Press actually work. Having one without the other can be a really frustrating setup.
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Re: Why can we negotiate during retreat/build phases?

Postby TheCraw » 06 Sep 2019, 19:01

..... because it gives up more time for arguing and name-calling, of course.
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