1900 Map Question

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1900 Map Question

Postby Oh Cheese » 16 May 2019, 04:23

On 1900 Map, Russia gets an extra build if it loses a home SC, because of Siberia - which becomes a build site.

However, if Siberia is then occupied by another country, of course Russia cannot build there, but does Russia get the EXTRA unit on the board, pertaining to the usual rule regarding Siberia?
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby AKFD » 16 May 2019, 08:17

Russia STILL gets an extra build.

The rules say that you CAN use Siberia as a build site.

The rules wrote:The "Russian Emergency Measures rule” provides that if at any time Russia does not control all of its home centers (but still controls at least one) it can build one unit more than its SC count, and during this time Russia is allowed to build in Siberia.


It does not say that Russia got the build because of Siberia. It only says you can build there.
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby Oh Cheese » 16 May 2019, 08:50

While it is probably safe to assume Russia cannot build there while another country's unit sits there, does it also mean Russia can build there if is 'owned' by a different country (i.e. a different colour to purple,) but vacant? The rules are not clear.
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby AKFD » 16 May 2019, 12:49

Oh Cheese wrote:While it is probably safe to assume Russia cannot build there while another country's unit sits there, does it also mean Russia can build there if is 'owned' by a different country (i.e. a different colour to purple,) but vacant? The rules are not clear.


That I am not sure of. I'll check.
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby Oh Cheese » 16 May 2019, 13:09

Seems the answer is yes, Russia gets the other unit regardless of another country occupying Siberia...
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby The SHIV » 16 May 2019, 16:22

It gets the extra unit. But can it build the unit in Siberia since its a different color?

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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby Shyvve » 16 May 2019, 18:59

Here are the REM rules:

The Russian Emergency Measures Rule
The REM Rule reflects the fact that Russia's greatest military assets at the dawn of the 20th century were its seemingly endless supply of manpower and its vast resources. Unfortunately, terrible mismanagement and a weak economy prevented Russia from successfully exploiting these assets. If Russia were to suffer a severe setback, such as is implied by the loss of a home supply center, it seems reasonable to assume the Russian government would be shocked into taking drastic measures to overcome the situation, to include stripping the many garrisons stationed throughout the Asiatic portions of the Empire and better managing its limited industrial capability. To this effect:

Whenever Russia possesses at least one, BUT NOT ALL FOUR, of its original home supply centers, it is entitled to maintain one extra unit on the map (i.e., one more than the number of supply centers it currently controls). Additionally, while Russia is in this condition, the Russian player may use Siberia as a build site during the adjustment phase, if Siberia is unoccupied. Should Russia fail to possess at least one home supply center OR should it regain possession of all four of its home supply centers, the ability to maintain an extra unit is lost and any excess units must be disbanded during the subsequent adjustment phase. Further, Siberia reverts too its normal status (i.e., it is no longer a build site)
Note that Siberia, while it may become a build site, NEVER attains supply center status."

So, there you have it. As you can see, 1900 is, at heart, just like the game of Diplomacy that we have all come to know and love. The map, unit, and rule changes do, however, alter the dynamics of how the Great Powers interact with each other. Once you've played, I think you'll agree that it was well worth your time. In fact, I expect you'll be so impressed with 1900 that you may have a tough time going back to conventional Diplomacy.


So, Siberia becomes an eligible build site but never becomes a SC when REM is in effect (Russia controls 1-3 of its home centers).
There is a significant edit on the 1900 Rules page which addresses whether Russia can build in Siberia if Siberia is unoccupied, but not controlled, by Russia.

EDIT: If REM is active, Russia can use Siberia as long as it is unoccupied, EVEN IF Siberia has changed colour to another nation.

This surprised me too. As I would've thought that if Russia didn't control Siberia, but it was vacant, that Russia couldn't have built there. It definitely seems they can in light of the edit. The original rules stipulate only that Siberia be unoccupied for it be an eligible build site under REM, but make no mention of ownership.

Link to full 1900 Rules: viewtopic.php?f=566&t=33948
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 16 May 2019, 19:27

Shyvve wrote:This surprised me too. As I would've thought that if Russia didn't control Siberia, but it was vacant, that Russia couldn't have built there. It definitely seems they can in light of the edit. The original rules stipulate only that Siberia be unoccupied for it be an eligible build site under REM, but make no mention of ownership.


This is because there is no concept of "ownership" for a non-SC location in the core Dip rules. That's something that has been introduced in automated interfaces like this one that color non-SC land spaces based on the last unit to set foot there. We use that concept of ownership in our Fog-of-War variant, but it normally has nothing other than aesthetic value.

Therefore, the "ownership" of Siberia isn't actually a rule at all from 1900's standpoint. What ultimately matters is whether (1) the EMR rules are in effect and (2) whether that space is currently occupied by a unit.
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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby The SHIV » 17 May 2019, 15:14

Good job Shyvve! You still Da Man!

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Re: 1900 Map Question

Postby ColonelApricot » 19 May 2019, 01:41

The Fog point is an interesting one. In FOW you can only see provinces that are either your colour or are occupied by units that are your colour. In the case of Siberia if it was last occupied by a non-Russian power then unlike with the normal home centres Russia would not know whether there was a non-Russian unit present. Ordering a build in any province is valid, therefore Russia could discover that a unit was present by ordering a build - but that could be a costly item of information.

Possibly getting a bit esoteric here mumble mumble....

..CA

PS I admire the coding achievement of implementing the REM thing.
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