Deadlocked Game

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Re: Deadlocked Game

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 18 Dec 2018, 05:36

condude1 wrote:To be fair, in any case when a player has something to gain (apart from waiting for one of his opponents to die or NMR, which is just poor sportsmanship), the deadlock procedure shouldn't be activating in the first place. If it is, it's reasonable to circumvent it - the deadlock procedure is for games that are completely drawn, not a goal in and of itself.


And likewise, attempting to invoke the procedure for the purpose of delaying others from doing so is not doing so in good faith. Lying to your fellow players is all well and dandy, but lying to the mods?

That’s an entirely different matter.
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Re: Deadlocked Game

Postby super_dipsy » 18 Dec 2018, 08:16

Zosimus wrote:The rules say:

"If the criteria is(sic) not met the Mod will reply to the player who referred the game explaining why no action will be taken. The explanation will refer to only the criteria above. No reference will be made to content of messages. The game cannot be referred again for another three game years."

I seem to recall that on 10 November 2018, I purposely referred a game to you in which the criteria were not met. My purpose in doing so was to prevent other players from meeting the requirements and referring the game. The messages you sent to me indicated (at least to me) that my attempt had succeeded. Perhaps I misread your response. Care to elaborate?

Read my responses again, carefully this time. Without me reproducing private PMs here, you will see the following.
- you sent a PM to request a referral, when as you clearly specified there had only been ONE DIAS proposal
- I responded reproducing the criteria and the bit that says TWO DIAS proposals had been tried and your confirmation that only ONE has been made
- You wrote back and said 'let the record show' that a referral had been made and that no further referral can be made for three years
- My response was precisely "The record will show what occurred."
- You then asked me to post in the PP to the effect that no further proposals could now be made for 3 years
- I refused (without explaining)

My reason for these responses is the referral was clearly not valid as a deadlocked games referral when you PMed me because, as you yourself pointed out it, did not even meet the criteria as listed, regardless of extra stuff a Mod could check that you can't see such as messages. Therefore, a referral had never been made. The point is that for a referral to be valid, it has to follow (as far as you can tell at least) the criteria as laid down. That is clearly written in the rules. Hence your PM did not trigger anything else because it was no more than a PM with some information in. When you said that the record should show that therefore no further referral could be made in the next 3 years, I did not feel it was my place in an active game to disabuse you of your incorrect assumption. Hence I simply responded (somewhat cryptically I admit) that the record would show what occurred. That of course was the reason I refused to post in the PP. Since there was no referral, there was nothing for me to say. I certainly could not say you had PMed me in an abortive attempt to refer the game because that could have affected you negatively, which would not have been fair.

There was something positive that came out of this though. I had never thought of someone trying to block referral requests using the 3-year block. This block was put there to stop someone who did not agree with the Mods judgement of a referral request flooding with multiple requests. Obviously it would be pretty uncommon for a player to deliberately achieve the block, because in order for a PM to even be acknowledged as a referral it would have to meet the criteria laid down as far as the submitter could see, so it would mean that for the referral to be refused it would have to be because a Mod, with the extra information available like messages between powers, decided that in his or her opinion the game did NOT in fact meet the criteria. Obvoiusly the risk is that if the player can see all the conditions have been fuflilled based on what he/she can see, then a Mod might agree and call the draw. However, because there might be some ambigiuty there, we added a tweak to more clearly match the written rule with the intent. Since the intent was to prevent a player flooding with multiple referrals, we changed the wording such that the 3 year block related to the player and not the game. This makes things clearer, I hope.
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Re: Deadlocked Game

Postby condude1 » 18 Dec 2018, 10:24

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
condude1 wrote:To be fair, in any case when a player has something to gain (apart from waiting for one of his opponents to die or NMR, which is just poor sportsmanship), the deadlock procedure shouldn't be activating in the first place. If it is, it's reasonable to circumvent it - the deadlock procedure is for games that are completely drawn, not a goal in and of itself.


And likewise, attempting to invoke the procedure for the purpose of delaying others from doing so is not doing so in good faith. Lying to your fellow players is all well and dandy, but lying to the mods?

That’s an entirely different matter.


I agree wholeheartedly, I was just pointing out that it's a rare day this will be a problem.
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Re: Deadlocked Game

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 18 Dec 2018, 13:28

condude1 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:
condude1 wrote:To be fair, in any case when a player has something to gain (apart from waiting for one of his opponents to die or NMR, which is just poor sportsmanship), the deadlock procedure shouldn't be activating in the first place. If it is, it's reasonable to circumvent it - the deadlock procedure is for games that are completely drawn, not a goal in and of itself.


And likewise, attempting to invoke the procedure for the purpose of delaying others from doing so is not doing so in good faith. Lying to your fellow players is all well and dandy, but lying to the mods?

That’s an entirely different matter.


I agree wholeheartedly, I was just pointing out that it's a rare day this will be a problem.


I wasn’t disagreeing with you. That reply was mostly for the benefit of readers who might think Zosimus’ suggestions for trolling the process are legitimate.
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Re: Deadlocked Game

Postby Zosimus » 18 Dec 2018, 23:23

Well, the deadlocked game procedure was pretty clear as written. Once referred, according to the expressed system, the game could not be re-referred for three years. At any rate, in the context of the game, I achieved my goal because I told everyone (quite truthfully) that I had attempted to refer the game and that the game did not meet the criteria for a deadlocked game. Because of this, Germany decided to do something more than just fail to communicate with everyone and support everything to hold. Subsequently, the game came to a negotiated close that everyone accepted.

At any rate, taking maximum advantage of the rules is not "trolling." Had I not done something, the game would surely have languished indefinitely.

And as for what I asked you to put in the PP, I only requested that you say that the game did not meet the criteria for a deadlocked game, a true statement. Fortunately, I was able to accomplish my goal without external aid.
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Re: Deadlocked Game

Postby super_dipsy » 19 Dec 2018, 07:38

Zosimus wrote:Well, the deadlocked game procedure was pretty clear as written. Once referred...

That was exactly my point. A PM does not equal a referral. The rule specifically states:
DGP wrote:Process for Referring a Deadlocked Game.
1. Referrals must be by Private Message only.
2. Players must provide the game name and number.
3. Players must show that EACH criterion above has been met.

Since as you pointed out, one of the criteria was not met, your PM was just that - a PM. There was no referral.

As for not posting in the PP, it is irrelevant whatever you wanted me to post. Since there was no referral, anything I posted would be me interfering with the game for no reason. I'm glad the game was resolved though - it is always better when these things happen without Mod involvement :)
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