Incorrect orders in F2F

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Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Bromley86 » 09 Mar 2017, 10:14

I was wondering. Imprecise fleet orders are replaced with Hold, right?

F MAO-Spa ---> Hold.
F MAO-Spa(sc) ---> Success!

But what would happen if someone wrote:

A Gas S A Spa(sc) hold --->?

I'd assume it'd go through, because it's a simple error that can't be interpreted any other way. Is that the case?
Last edited by Bromley86 on 09 Mar 2017, 12:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby edmgrim » 09 Mar 2017, 10:32

Bromley86 wrote:I was wondering. Imprecise fleet orders are replaced with Hold, right?

F MAO-Spa ---> Hold.
F MAO-Spa(sc) ---> Success!

But what would happen if someone wrote:

A Gas S A Spa(sc) hold --->?

I'd assume it's go through, because it's a simple error that can't be interpreted any other way. Is that the case?

This is consistent with the way our group plays. In general, if a newbie make this mistake, we cut them a break the first time.
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby super_dipsy » 09 Mar 2017, 10:55

It is really a matter of choice. On the site, we are pretty picky about orders because software is not good at judgements but better with firm rules ;) But in F2F games, you can be more flexible. The rules are not too clear on this - here is the relevant section:
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (38.06 KiB) Viewed 1782 times


As you can see, it says an illegal order results in the unit 'standing in place', but never defines precisely what that means. At Playdip we interpret this as a Hold order, and I think that is pretty generally the case across Diplomacy in general. In case you were wondering, the reason it matters is that the question arises can you support a unit that gives an illegal order to hold. If I order Lon - Munich, could I be supported to Hold? Normally you cannot support a unit to Hold if it is ordered to Move. If you say it just doesn't move (stands?) then it cannot be supported to Hold since it was ordered to move and failed. However if you replace an illegal order with a Hold order it CAN now be supported.

The other confusing bit is it says 'a poorly written order that has only one meaning must be followed'. What does that mean? Good question. If you have an army in Spa, and gascony is ordered to support A Spa(South Coast), is that an illegal order (technically it is) or is it merely poorly written and clearly has only one meaning? Since the meaning is not correct, it could be argued it has no meaning :)

The only important thing is that you are clear before the game on how you will handle these situations. BTW, there are numerous other holes / confusions / ambiguities in the rules, although they are quite rare and unlikely to come up. If you want to see a list (together with what Playdip does about them) they are here http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=646&t=41661
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Bromley86 » 09 Mar 2017, 12:11

Thanks guys! Thorough as always.
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby The SHIV » 09 Mar 2017, 12:21

In that case, its that last sentence. ;)

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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Eleusinian » 09 Mar 2017, 18:31

The only important thing is that you are clear before the game on how you will handle these situations.


That's my take on it, too. If I'm playing with newbies, there's enough on their mind that they typically won't need the "intentionally order something subtly wrong so that I get a hold order while seeming not to stab" trick. And it is likely that they'll get something subtly wrong, in a way that if we held them to it, would annoyingly throw off the game. That's no fun for them -- imagine having a whole plan to ally with someone, and then accidentally ruining that because you didn't understand the mechanics of writing orders.

So I'll usually take a pretty extreme stance on leniency, especially early in the game. By extreme, I mean that if they write "Paris -> Burg," but when I read the order they exclaim, "oh no, I meant to say Paris supports Burgundy to hold! How would I write that??" then I'll even allow that change. Obviously this requires honesty on their part to not lie about their intentions, but in a friendly game of beginners, I think that works.To dipsy's point, I'll declare before the game that that's how I intend to run things. After a few turns, once people start understanding the rules a bit more, I'll suggest we bump up the strict-o-meter so that things like "A Paris -> Burg" will always mean Paris attacks Burgundy, even if you say that's not what you meant. But again, I won't be stricter without first saying that the next turn will be stricter (and making sure everyone agrees with that).

Basically, I think the learning curve with Diplomacy is steep enough that it's best to cut people slack, and if the game is one of newbies who all know each other, we can usually trust each other to not metagame by intentionally writing wrong orders and then tweaking them on the fly as needed. In the end, it's about what's most fun for the group you're playing with.
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Jegpeg » 09 Mar 2017, 21:37

Another couple of ways in which the rules are about whether an order is illegal

[*]A Bre - Por is clearly a legal move if their is a fleet in MAO but what if it is not? Playdip adjudicator says it is then illegal but others have interpreted as still legal.
[*]F MAO - Spa is clearly illegal as it could go to either coast but F Gas - Spa could be interpreted as only having one meaning as it can not go the the south coast.


In fact I am not sure how easy it would be in F2F to cover how all possible situations would be covered especially when it comes to typos.
A Paris to Bergundy would probably be treated as the meaning being clear but A Par - Ber would be illegal (but what is bad handwriting makes it look more like Ber but could be Bur)

There are also lots of obscure things that will very rarely come up in an actual game such as dealing with paradoxes and units trying to change places (with a convoy involved).

Rather than spend several hours discussing every eventuality (and then not playing because it is time to go home) agree on the common ones and hope the rare ones don't occur.
Last edited by Jegpeg on 09 Mar 2017, 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Carebear » 09 Mar 2017, 22:21

Bromley86 wrote:I'd assume it'd go through, because it's a simple error that can't be interpreted any other way. Is that the case?

Yes, the commonly accepted ruling in FTF play is if there is no possible other interpretation.

GOL - Spa will typically be accepted because there is no access to Spa(nc).

Edi - NOR will be rejected.

Also, if an order is made for a unit twice, it is considered to hold as well.
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Bromley86 » 09 Mar 2017, 23:45

Cheers CB. I bet that accidentally-ordered-twice thing gets used all the time :) .
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Re: Incorrect orders in F2F

Postby Carebear » 09 Mar 2017, 23:47

Bromley86 wrote:Cheers CB. I bet that accidentally-ordered-twice thing gets used all the time :) .

You might well think that, but I couldn't possibly say.
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