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A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 08:35
by super_dipsy
I am currently trying out the new code base Fog of War functionality. I don't play FoW but I know there are some funnies about what you can / cannot see. Can an experienced FoW player save me some time?

First, I think you can always see an adjacent territory to one you occupy even if you cannot move there, yes? So for example a fleet Rumania can see inland. Is that right?

Second, I am assuming the same is true for coasts - so a fleet in St P South Coast can still see Norway?

Third, I am sure there is something about when you leave territories (or is it just SCs) you still see them your colour even if you are not adjacent unless they get conquered? Am I getting confused here? I'm sure there was some sort of territory ownership / colour thing even when you can't see it.

Fourth, anything else I have missed?

Thanks a bundle guys, it saves me crawling through the old code to see what it actually does!

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 12:14
by Bromley86
I'm not a big FoW player, but there's the fleet issue (wink:wink) that I'm sure you're aware of.

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 12:33
by joe92
Yes on all fronts. Can't think of any additional sight rules.

I find that third point quite useful when playing fog actually. Can position sparser units for defence and look for any territories that change colour to alert me to cover a supply centre.

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 13:07
by ThorondorNL
Yes you are right on all points. The third point is a very nice feature and it is true for all territories, not only SCs ;)

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 14:36
by Zubb
Regarding #3. With SC you have actual sight of the territory as long as it is yours, so if an enemy units gets there and you have a look at the map before Build phase starts you get to know who got you. Non-SC territories just fade to gray immediately after getting captured.

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 15:33
by super_dipsy
Thanks all. Back to the testing!

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 21:44
by ColonelApricot
To be clear, sea provinces are always blue and land provinces are either coloured, neutral or gray. It is an inconsistency that invisible sea provinces are not gray; they should obey the rules of FoW just like land provinces.

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 16 Dec 2016, 06:50
by NoPunIn10Did
The one suggestion I'd have would be to change adjudication for support-to-move orders where the destination is a split coastline.

Namely, I think the automated judge should just fill in the move's coastline automatically behind the scenes.

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 16 Dec 2016, 23:32
by Jegpeg
nopunin10did wrote:The one suggestion I'd have would be to change adjudication for support-to-move orders where the destination is a split coastline.

Namely, I think the automated judge should just fill in the move's coastline automatically behind the scenes.


While I don't play FoW I think the adjudication should be the same for all games, and this should not block legal orders. For example at present we have:

Turkey
Con to Bul sc
Russia
Rum S Con to Bul ec

Russia could be giving a deliberate misorder to he can still be friendly to Turkey without actually helping him.

Then consider what happens if the supports order's coastline is automatically filled in, Russia agrees to support Turkey from Con to Bul ec from where he will attack be in position to attack units around the Med, Turkey however would like to attack Russia

Turkey
Con to Bul ec

Russia
Rum S Con to Bul sc --> Order changed to Rum S Con to Bul ec behind the scenes.

If anything is done to prevent incorrect coasts being ordered it should only be where the unit moving can only go to once coast and it should then be clear on the GUI (e.g. if you are moving or supporting Mar to Spa you do not choose a coast and sc is applied as it is the only option, but if you are moving or supporting MAO to Spa you have to enter the coast). However here you come to a balance where you want to help prevent beginners from accidentally making an error (the equivalent of a badly worded order that has only one meaning) while at the same time allowing deliberate mis-orders from more experienced players.

Re: A question for all you Fog of War experts!

PostPosted: 17 Dec 2016, 00:00
by NoPunIn10Did
Jegpeg wrote:
nopunin10did wrote:The one suggestion I'd have would be to change adjudication for support-to-move orders where the destination is a split coastline.

Namely, I think the automated judge should just fill in the move's coastline automatically behind the scenes.


While I don't play FoW I think the adjudication should be the same for all games, and this should not block legal orders. For example at present we have:

Turkey
Con to Bul sc
Russia
Rum S Con to Bul ec

Russia could be giving a deliberate misorder to he can still be friendly to Turkey without actually helping him.

Then consider what happens if the supports order's coastline is automatically filled in, Russia agrees to support Turkey from Con to Bul ec from where he will attack be in position to attack units around the Med, Turkey however would like to attack Russia

Turkey
Con to Bul ec

Russia
Rum S Con to Bul sc --> Order changed to Rum S Con to Bul ec behind the scenes.

If anything is done to prevent incorrect coasts being ordered it should only be where the unit moving can only go to once coast and it should then be clear on the GUI (e.g. if you are moving or supporting Mar to Spa you do not choose a coast and sc is applied as it is the only option, but if you are moving or supporting MAO to Spa you have to enter the coast). However here you come to a balance where you want to help prevent beginners from accidentally making an error (the equivalent of a badly worded order that has only one meaning) while at the same time allowing deliberate mis-orders from more experienced players.


My comment is limited to FOW, and it's more in respect to when you are taking a leap of faith and supporting a move by an unseen unit. Because the supported unit cannot be seen, you wouldn't normally know whether a fleet or army is there.

If you're already going out on a limb to assume that a unit is in the fog, it's an unnecessary additional risk to have your order be invalid because you got the coast wrong.

(Apparently the current implementation asks for a coastline when you select a support for a hidden fleet, which is a bug.)

Since the rules for support-to-hold are more coastline-agnostic already (a fleet in Finland can already support F stp/nc), it would not too far a stretch to allow coastline-forgiveness on support-to-move in FoW.

FoW changes enough about the game that sacrificing deliberate misorders in split coasts is a small price to pay.