Time for a Rules Change

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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby super_dipsy » 30 Mar 2018, 07:29

I think WHS has shown his usual wisdom in pointing the way to resolve this simply and effectively.

We have a general rule that apart from severe stuff like porn, in Friends games anything goes because you are playing with a bunch of people who all know the score. The answer is just as WHS says; if you want to be able to use screenshots, feel free to do so in Friends games, although to be fair you should make that clear to the other players, perhaps in the game description or at least when you hand out the password. Screen shots will remain against the rules in other classes of game.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby SteveHybrid » 30 Mar 2018, 08:37

condude1 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:It's not a matter of being better with software. It's about learning to find new ways to lie. You don't have to use Photoshop or anything remotely like it to do that.


Irrelevant. The point stands that this gives an advantage to players who are better at editing pictures. A skill that should be completely irrelevant to the game at hand.

The counter-point is there are players who have a higher level of skill at other methods to deceive people.

As mentioned before, there are some people who alter messages really well and do it often while others are not good at it so they can't or won't due to various other reasons. By your words, this puts those people at a clear disadvantage. Should we not allow people to alter messages? The same alignment can be drawn when it comes to the argument regarding images. Some people will be able to do it while others are not that good or won't due to various reasons.

By saying "I can't do something so it's unfair since others can" seems a bit unreasonable.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 30 Mar 2018, 09:04

condude1 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:
condude1 wrote:While it's great to say that "Screenshots can't be trusted. no problem!", that doesn't actually resolve my complaint. Say someone asks me to screenshot a message. My options have been limited extremely far to telling the truth or making up some BS reason I can't screenshot things. That's a massive metagamey hurdle thrown up because I can't Photoshop.

Who needs to be diplomatic when you can just be slightly better with a completely irrelevant piece of software?


It's not a matter of being better with software. It's about learning to find new ways to lie. You don't have to use Photoshop or anything remotely like it to do that.


Irrelevant. The point stands that this gives an advantage to players who are better at editing pictures. A skill that should be completely irrelevant to the game at hand.


Emphasis added.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 12:30

condude1 wrote:Irrelevant. The point stands that this gives an advantage to players who are better at editing pictures. A skill that should be completely irrelevant to the game at hand.


I’d say being able to forge a message is entirely relevant to a game about war, diplomacy, intercepted communication, and a setting originally inspired by World War One.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram?wprov=sfti1

Now it’s more likely than not that the Zimmerman telegram was authentic, but it was the screenshot message of its day. And, notoriously, it might have been a fake.

Being able to present real (or doctored) proof is an important skill in diplomacy. How do you not see that?
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 12:45

super_dipsy wrote:I think WHS has shown his usual wisdom in pointing the way to resolve this simply and effectively.

We have a general rule that apart from severe stuff like porn, in Friends games anything goes because you are playing with a bunch of people who all know the score. The answer is just as WHS says; if you want to be able to use screenshots, feel free to do so in Friends games, although to be fair you should make that clear to the other players, perhaps in the game description or at least when you hand out the password. Screen shots will remain against the rules in other classes of game.


I’m already doing this (via PbF rather than the site), and it’s nowhere near as disruptive to the game as you all seem to think it will be. Some players share screenshots of others’ messages, and some don’t. Sometimes it’s an effective means of information sharing, and sometimes it’s not. There may have even been some forgeries or creative cropping along the way.

The point is that this restriction for site games is simply unnecessary. It’s banning a type of communication that doesn’t, in practice, cause problems for non-anonymous games. This is not like allowing steroids at the Olympics. It’s nothing to be so afraid of.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 30 Mar 2018, 13:16

condude1 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:
super_dipsy wrote:
If we allow screenshots, then every time you tell anyone anything (eg I got the following message, or I can see there is a French unit in Tuscany, honest, or whatever, a likely immediate response would be 'prove it, send me a screen shot'. Certainly what I would say. I know the screenshot could be a lie, but how does the person react to the question? If you do not know how to manipulate images, you are stuffed. You COULD try to claim you don't know how to take a screen shot, but it doesn;t take much to explain to someone how to do that on their browser. So in the end the only thing you can do is fall back on 'it's against my policy to send screenshots, sorry'. Not very convincing, is it.


Then maybe the rule shouldn't be "you can't share screenshots" but rather "you can't ask for them."


A really pathetic rule to put in place. Gag orders are a terrible proposition at the best of times (I've railed against them countless times in the mafia forums). I can't think of anything else I can't write in a message (unless I know the person on the other end, but that's a different can of worms). Maybe that's a tip off that allowing screenshots is a terrible idea?


The ban against screenshots is also a gag order.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby asudevil » 30 Mar 2018, 15:51

Cliff Dancer wrote:I'm getting slightly turned around on this one. If someone is willing to pour extra resources into a well crafted deception in an altered image, more power to them. I can't do it, and probably won't take the time to figure it out (to be honest, I don't even know how to post an image here), but if someone else has the tenacity, why not? Hacking of course is over the line as that would strictly retract from the enjoyment of the game for the vast majority of users.

Other point, this is the best Diplomacy site I've seen due to the user interface. Very friendly.


What if it becomes the "expectation" in fog games...that you share your map with your ally every season...and you don't know how to edit pictures...so you have to either send the truth...or lose an ally. While they are able to manipulate images and lie.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Jack007 » 30 Mar 2018, 16:14

asudevil wrote:What if it becomes the "expectation" in fog games...that you share your map with your ally every season...and you don't know how to edit pictures...so you have to either send the truth...or lose an ally. While they are able to manipulate images and lie.

You wouldn't worry about losing an ally who manipulates and lies to you. Neither about one who doesn't understand and appreciate when you tell him that you have reasons to not send him a picture.
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NB: It's better to have a good enemy than a bad ally.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby SteveHybrid » 30 Mar 2018, 17:19

asudevil wrote:What if it becomes the "expectation" in fog games...that you share your map with your ally every season...and you don't know how to edit pictures...so you have to either send the truth...or lose an ally. While they are able to manipulate images and lie.

Has anything else after being introduced become the standard or an expectation? I may think we're looking way to far into images being the go-to standard, however it's worth exploring, hence my question.

Further, couldn't the same be said regarding sending altered messages? If I'm asked to prove something someone else said and I'm not good at forgery, I kind of have to send the truth or as you put it, lose an ally. On both situations we have certain people who can preform a skill whether it's cropping an image or forgery. Saying only half of them are allowed and the other isn't is kind of one-sided.

It seems the biggest issue with most is simply that "They can't do it as well as others", however that's not a strong argument to say something is bad.

Messages vs Images
-Both do not have to be altered in order to advance yourself in the game
-Both can be altered by using an additional skill (Forgery and Image editing)
-Both skills required to alter the communication are relativity easy to pick up on
-One of them is considered unfair

Whether you're good at editing images or forgery there's always going to be people at different levels of skill. Saying well, it's fair some people are better at X but not fair if they are better at Y is a bit one-sided.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Machiara » 30 Mar 2018, 18:15

There's a difference between technical skill and skill with language. Skill with language is a component of this game. Technical skill is not.
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