Time for a Rules Change

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Time for a Rules Change

Postby springbutt46 » 28 Mar 2018, 16:03

Dipsy, All... it's time

I have recently been made aware of a rule against posting screen shots to another player of messages etc. The reasoning for the rule is posted thusly;

viewtopic.php?f=126&t=57454&hilit=screen+capture&start=20 (yes I know it goes to page 3...)

The reasoning is flawed. It is flawed because EVERYONE, in 2018, knows you can doctor an image as easily as you can text. It's child's play. I believe in my heart that the rule against that should be rescinded forthwith as no longer relevant. It was a good rule, 10 years ago when you started. It was more likely that the average person would think a screenshot is an incontrovertible fact. That is no longer the case.

It's time to update the rules.

At the very least... it should be put up for a vote.

Thanks
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Custer » 28 Mar 2018, 16:27

What are these screen shots and images he speaks of? I have no clue. Serious disadvantage.......

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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 28 Mar 2018, 16:43

I could go either way on this.

On the one hand, I'd like to see communication options open up in general. Text-only can be extremely limiting, and using screenshots can share information more quickly (particularly if you mark them up with potential plans and orders).

On the other hand, I wouldn't want screenshots to become so frequently used as to be expected. An occasional voluntary sharing of information is one thing, but I'd hate to see someone get away with a sort of chainsaw diplomacy tactic that demands screenshots for verification.

Maybe there could be slightly different rules for different circumstances. In "Regular" games, where everyone's identity is known anyway, maybe image-sharing rules are relaxed, while "Anonymous" games still have more tight restrictions.

And I'd still like to make sure such images are banned from the public chat.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby V » 28 Mar 2018, 16:54

If it’s a vote, mine’s Nay. Written correspondence is just fine. Not into pictures. Don’t want to see them, or send them. If it’s not a vote, I’ll refrain as necessary.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby joe92 » 28 Mar 2018, 17:16

It is very easy for the technical savvy - which is a lot of people these days. I know when I see a completely insane tweet of Donald Trump it's only a 60-70% chance he actually wrote it, and it could also have been from someone right-clicking, clicking "Inspect Element" and then altering the HTML element to contain some spoof text. The image itself could very well not have been doctored but the content is. It's incredibly easy. Same story here.

But, it's not known by all. We're not at the stage where the vast majority of internet users know how to do these things. It's not a level playing field. Hell, my brother doesn't even know how to do it and he's not even 30 yet.

I would lean towards no at this point in time.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 28 Mar 2018, 17:20

joe92 wrote:It is very easy for the technical savvy - which is a lot of people these days. I know when I see a completely insane tweet of Donald Trump it's only a 60-70% chance he actually wrote it, and it could also have been from someone right-clicking, clicking "Inspect Element" and then altering the HTML element to contain some spoof text. The image itself could very well not have been doctored but the content is. It's incredibly easy. Same story here.

But, it's not known by all. We're not at the stage where the vast majority of internet users know how to do these things. It's not a level playing field. Hell, my brother doesn't even know how to do it and he's not even 30 yet.

I would lean towards no at this point in time.


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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 28 Mar 2018, 17:32

joe92 wrote:But, it's not known by all. We're not at the stage where the vast majority of internet users know how to do these things. It's not a level playing field. Hell, my brother doesn't even know how to do it and he's not even 30 yet.


From my standpoint, the fact that some people can hypothetically alter the screenshots, and some can't, isn't the most important question. If someone wants to share some form of "proof" (whether real or altered), that's a valid negotiation tactic. Right now, forwarding messages is a type of "proof," though clearly those are easier to edit in the interface itself. Even that, however, is difficult when a particular player's writing style is hard to mimic.

I don't have a problem with someone wanting to offer more information to support their claims. I also don't think that tactic would even work all the time; if it's known that A shares all of the A-with-B communications with C, then how is C to know that the A-with-C communications aren't being likewise shared with B or D? The proof you offer in one instance could make you a less reliable partner. As such, I don't think the level-playing-field aspect matters all that much.

What may matter, to me at least, is the opportunity for other types of abuse.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby joe92 » 28 Mar 2018, 17:50

NoPunIn10Did wrote:
joe92 wrote:But, it's not known by all. We're not at the stage where the vast majority of internet users know how to do these things. It's not a level playing field. Hell, my brother doesn't even know how to do it and he's not even 30 yet.


From my standpoint, the fact that some people can hypothetically alter the screenshots, and some can't, isn't the most important question. If someone wants to share some form of "proof" (whether real or altered), that's a valid negotiation tactic. Right now, forwarding messages is a type of "proof," though clearly those are easier to edit in the interface itself. Even that, however, is difficult when a particular player's writing style is hard to mimic.

I don't have a problem with someone wanting to offer more information to support their claims. I also don't think that tactic would even work all the time; if it's known that A shares all of the A-with-B communications with C, then how is C to know that the A-with-C communications aren't being likewise shared with B or D? The proof you offer in one instance could make you a less reliable partner. As such, I don't think the level-playing-field aspect matters all that much.

What may matter, to me at least, is the opportunity for other types of abuse.

Yes that is true. I'm often quite distrustful of players who share message threads with me, or just too much information with me. It's often more negative in my eyes for the exact reason you explain, "well if they're sharing that with me, what are they sharing that I've told them with others?"

And I think I may have misunderstood Springbutt's point. It isn't that everyone knows how to doctor the images, it's that everyone knows that images can very easily be doctored and thus the sharing of a screenshot doesn't actually offer concrete proof to anyone. Which is a better point. While not everybody knows that, it's certainly close to it.

I'm not sure what other abuses there are with sharing screenshots? Can you give an example. The only thing I can think of is that not everybody knows how to do it.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby SteveHybrid » 28 Mar 2018, 17:55

joe92 wrote:But, it's not known by all. We're not at the stage where the vast majority of internet users know how to do these things. It's not a level playing field. Hell, my brother doesn't even know how to do it and he's not even 30 yet.


While I agree not everyone has the skill of altering a screenshot, it doesn't make it an uneven playing field. First, everyone should understand that there's a possibility for it to be fake, just like any other information being sent around. Secondly, it doesn't really matter who can and can not, if someone has the skill to do so, let them use it. Just like if some people are good at faking written messages, or convincing people to do certain orders, let them use those skills. The overall goal is to do whatever you can to get the edge through diplomacy.

Is it possible for me to say "I'm not good at altering written messages, so therefore no one can do that either?"

On the flip side, there are two major factors against sharing screenshots, abuse and security. While I'd prefer to have the ability to share screenshots, I don't think it will pass if voted upon in this community.
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Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby SteveHybrid » 28 Mar 2018, 18:04

joe92 wrote:I'm not sure what other abuses there are with sharing screenshots? Can you give an example. The only thing I can think of is that not everybody knows how to do it.

Here are two quick examples:

1. Taking a screenshot and forgetting to clip out your username from the top would be a great way to "accidentally" show who you are. In anon games this would be an issue, however, usernames could be altered as well.
2. Rather than using the img tags to display the image, some people would just link it like this: Check out this map https://goo.gl/8sS1Hy (check out the map to see why screenshots could be abused)
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