Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Rules for playing on and using the site.
Forum rules
This section of the Forum is for the Site's rules.
If you have a question about how to play the game, please post in the RULES section of the Forum, not here. The site's rules for standard Dip do not substantially differ from published rules.

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby Pope Pius IX » 25 Feb 2020, 22:26

I've only read the part of the glossary quoted on this thread, but theoretically, how could you be certain you aren't already involved in a game with a player you're subbing for, if some games are anonymous?
Silver Classicist.
Head of the Roman Catholic Church.
User avatar
Pope Pius IX
 
Posts: 65
Joined: 31 Mar 2019, 15:42
Location: London, when not the Vatican City
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1236
All-game rating: 1240
Timezone: GMT

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby smartiperson » 26 Feb 2020, 00:39

I agree that this subject generates more questions:

- can you sub for the same player in more than 1 game?

- can someone who’s been subbed in one game then sub the other player in another game (not sure why you’d want to do that, but maybe it could happen, if the players wanted to ‘swap’ positions to try out alternative tactics, etc)
smartiperson
Premium Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 22:45
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1277
All-game rating: 1221
Timezone: GMT

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 26 Feb 2020, 16:16

I suspect that rule may need to be updated. It's certainly advisable to have caution before subbing in for someone who is an opponent of yours in another game, but that responsibility is ultimately on the shoulders of the player being replaced, not the player who replaces.

What say the rest of you? What if we changed it to this:

substitute - a player taking over a power for a portion of the game at the request and for the benefit of the original player. Players may only substitute for one power in any given game. Players should use extreme caution before asking another player to act as a substitute when they share another current or pending game, as this can potentially be interpreted as evidence of metagaming. Except for NMRs the substitute incurs, all results of the game for Rating and Player Class purposes are applied to the original player, not the substitute.
Forum Admin & New Variant Development Assistant

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2783
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby smartiperson » 27 Feb 2020, 00:08

I’ve just thought of another potential related problem. Having just decided to join some more games, I suddenly got concerned that I might join another game (either as a replacement in an existing match or new) which contains the subbed player. Then suddenly I would find myself in breach of this rule, admittedly retrospectively. So I feel I need to be much more careful to study the player lists before joining an existing game.

Of course, I can’t do anything about signing up for a new game and then the subbed player joining up after me. Or even him joining as different replacement player in an existing game after I do.

I guess I might be over-thinking this subject, as its probably a pretty rare set of circumstances that would lead to being in multiple games with a subbed player, who is more likely to have needed to quit completely causing the need to request to be subbed. Still, it does make you realise how complicated life can get if you accept a substitute request, and are playing or plan to play in several games.
smartiperson
Premium Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 22:45
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1277
All-game rating: 1221
Timezone: GMT

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby Shyvve » 27 Feb 2020, 16:30

Offsetting this somewhat is the fact that a player who has had someone sub in for them in a game, is prevented from joining any other games as long as he has a sub playing for him in another game.

It is indeed a rare set of circumstances as evidenced by the good bit of digging around some of us have done trying to suss out the solution!

Barring some type of 'coding fix' wherein the player naming a substitute couldn't input the name of a player he currently has an active or pending game with, I would think the onus is really on the player requesting the sub to make sure the player he's asking to sub isn't in an active or pending game with him. That does nothing to solve the issue of the potential sub being in an Anon Players game with the requesting player though. But even then, since there would be no way either play could KNOW this, then I think this rule wouldn't have force.

I think if both players, the requester and the potential sub, checked their games beforehand to make sure they didn't share any (as far as they CAN know), then both should be good as far as this rule.
An Oldie and Gold Classicist. Moderator for the Classicist group.
User avatar
Shyvve
Premium Member
 
Posts: 478
Joined: 31 Dec 2016, 20:10
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1313)
All-game rating: (1345)
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby smartiperson » 27 Feb 2020, 19:36

That's really useful that someone can't join any other games while they have a sub, I didn't know that.

Regarding my own difficulty, that's been solved now as the subbed player has indeed auto-exited from my other game. It turns out he was trying to get someone else to sub him from that other game, so I guess he was aiming to rectify the situation before having to leave for awhile. Better that than just resigning.

I was keen to avoid breaking any site rules, so I guess some form of adjustment to prevent people requesting and/or becoming subs when they're already in a game with that person would be helpful. I must admit I don't normally bother to check out all the other player names I'm playing against, so I'll be more careful in future.

I don't think its an issue with Anon players, since if no-one knows (not even the sub or rubber) then I can't see it would make any difference to anyone.
smartiperson
Premium Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 22:45
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1277
All-game rating: 1221
Timezone: GMT

Re: Substitutes - taking over and how to leave?

Postby Malarky » 10 Apr 2020, 10:45

I also don't think it's a problem in anonymous players games. You don't know who's in the game, so you can't do anything about it.

There are some obvious ways this shouldn't matter, though. First, as has been said, you can't enter any other games while someone is subbing for you. Which is spot on: if you need a temporary sub in one game, why are you able to play in other games?

Second, here's an example:
- Player X is looking for a substitute in Game 1, and is also in Game 2; both games are anonymous players (wouldn't it make more sense for this type of game to be called something like "Full Anonymous"? That would make it clearer, perhaps..?).
- Player Y is in Game 2 and, not knowing that Player X is also in this game, agrees to sub for Player X in Game 1.
In this situation, as I said above, if Player X needs a sub in Game 1, surely he needs a sub in Game 2, also? If they don't require a sub in Game 2, why do they need a sub in Game 1? That doesn't seem to make sense, frankly. If this logic is correct, then Player X should be subbed in Game 2, also, so at least they won't be in the same game together at the same time(ish).

The problem is that my logic, there, while on point when players genuinely need a substitute because they need to take a break from the site, isn't accurate for those players who simply can't be bothered with playing one game and, rather than taking the surrender hit (which is no different from losing, but this isn't always understood), request a sub for the game they're not bothered about. They might be happy to continue in other games.

It might make sense, therefore, to say that if you request a sub in one game, you automatically request a sub in all games, on the basis that if you genuinely need a sub, you need it in every game.
Respect neither opinions nor beliefs; only respect the person and the right to express them.
Play by the rules but be ferocious.
The Playdiplomacy Guide
Across the Whole Board
User avatar
Malarky
Premium Member
 
Posts: 320
Joined: 20 Feb 2017, 09:27
Location: Yorkshire
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 941
All-game rating: 1066
Timezone: GMT

Previous

Return to Rules for Fair Play and Fair Use

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests