Scoring system

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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 20:59

gsmx wrote:
VegaMan wrote:But as long as we have this winner take all function... you should NEVER get points for a draw. If you don't get 18 SC's you lose. Simple as that. Even better would be to remove draws completely but I don't see that happening.

This is a bit of an extreme view, taking away the carrot of settling for a draw would completely change the dynamic of the game. Diplomacy is a game where you need to work your way through a lot of grey areas before you get anywhere near a black-and-white win. Unless there's a tonne of incompetence in a particular game it's pretty impossible to get to a solo on your own so you need to work with people on your way and why would they work with you once their own solo win is out of reach unless they have some hope of getting a piece of the pie. Everybody needs to do the "sure i'll share my win with you" dance before they get anywhere near a solo opportunity.


Which encourages people to not let someone else get too strong. People would generally ally with the weaker powers causing people to last longer, enabling them more of a reason to keep playing since all hope is not lost, having fewer games played since games are longer, having more long term effects in a game to take place.

I see this as a great thing. So far I have seen the pie split as completely detrimental to the game.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Aeilko » 19 Aug 2013, 21:00

VegaMan wrote:
Petunia wrote:You can keep saying that, but it's not going to make it any more true.

http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules ... lebook.pdf

dip.JPG



Yes... it's a draw. No one won. So it should still be counted as a loss.


But then again, the drawing countries didn't lose (read, eliminated) either, so it shouldn't be a loss.
Besides that, in this case, what is the definition of winning anything? In my opionon winning should be achieving the objective of a game. In Football this is scoring more than the other team, in Risk completing youre objective. In diplomacy this is gaining 18 SC's or agreeing on a draw. So agreeing on a draw is achieving the objective, therefore it is winning this game.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 21:02

Aeilko wrote:
VegaMan wrote:
Petunia wrote:You can keep saying that, but it's not going to make it any more true.

http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules ... lebook.pdf

dip.JPG



Yes... it's a draw. No one won. So it should still be counted as a loss.


But then again, the drawing countries didn't lose (read, eliminated) either, so it shouldn't be a loss.
Besides that, in this case, what is the definition of winning anything? In my opionon winning should be achieving the objective of a game. In Football this is scoring more than the other team, in Risk completing youre objective. In diplomacy this is gaining 18 SC's or agreeing on a draw. So agreeing on a draw is achieving the objective, therefore it is winning this game.


No, they quit.... which if you ask me is worse than getting eliminated
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Petunia » 19 Aug 2013, 21:12

VegaMan wrote:Yes... it's a draw. No one won. So it should still be counted as a loss.

Aeilko wrote:In diplomacy this is gaining 18 SC's or agreeing on a draw. So agreeing on a draw is achieving the objective, therefore it is winning this game.

Ooh! Or, on the other hand, I have an idea. Perhaps As soon as one Great Power controls 18 supply centers, it's considered to have gained control of Europe. The player representing that Great Power is the winner. However, players can end the game by agreement before a winner is determined. In this case, all players who still have pieces on the game board share equally in a draw.

Or people could just keep nattering on about what they think is the case or what they would like to be the case rather than accepting as fact what is the case.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 21:19

Petunia wrote:
VegaMan wrote:Yes... it's a draw. No one won. So it should still be counted as a loss.

Aeilko wrote:In diplomacy this is gaining 18 SC's or agreeing on a draw. So agreeing on a draw is achieving the objective, therefore it is winning this game.

Ooh! Or, on the other hand, I have an idea. Perhaps As soon as one Great Power controls 18 supply centers, it's considered to have gained control of Europe. The player representing that Great Power is the winner. However, players can end the game by agreement before a winner is determined. In this case, all players who still have pieces on the game board share equally in a draw.

Or people could just keep nattering on about what they think is the case or what they would like to be the case rather than accepting as fact what is the case.

Or we can count draws as a loss instead of a win, and all players can equally surrender
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Aeilko » 19 Aug 2013, 21:31

VegaMan wrote:
Petunia wrote:
VegaMan wrote:Yes... it's a draw. No one won. So it should still be counted as a loss.

Aeilko wrote:In diplomacy this is gaining 18 SC's or agreeing on a draw. So agreeing on a draw is achieving the objective, therefore it is winning this game.

Ooh! Or, on the other hand, I have an idea. Perhaps As soon as one Great Power controls 18 supply centers, it's considered to have gained control of Europe. The player representing that Great Power is the winner. However, players can end the game by agreement before a winner is determined. In this case, all players who still have pieces on the game board share equally in a draw.

Or people could just keep nattering on about what they think is the case or what they would like to be the case rather than accepting as fact what is the case.

Or we can count draws as a loss instead of a win, and all players can equally surrender


Why count it as a lose since you didn't lose.
Maybe we should count them as an 1/(no. players) win
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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 21:33

Aeilko wrote:Why count it as a lose since you didn't lose.
Maybe we should count them as an 1/(no. players) win

because drawing = quitting and quitting = losing

Surrendering also = quitting and quitting still = losing
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Aeilko » 19 Aug 2013, 21:38

VegaMan wrote:
Aeilko wrote:Why count it as a lose since you didn't lose.
Maybe we should count them as an 1/(no. players) win

because drawing = quitting and quitting = losing

Surrendering also = quitting and quitting still = losing


You're not quitting, you just decide to stop playing since continuing playing has no use. That's why, in my opninion, it can never be seen as a loss, but just as not winning.
Besides that the rules name drawing in the objective of the game, and achieving the objective of the game is winning.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 21:50

Aeilko wrote:
You're not quitting, you just decide to stop playing


That is pretty much the definition of quitting lol

Aeilko wrote: since continuing playing has no use.


I have a hard time thinking that many of the 3, 4, and 5 way draws we have fall under the category of "since continuing playing has no use." I could buy this argument for 2 way draws, although those seem to be less common than 3 ways.

Aeilko wrote:Besides that the rules name drawing in the objective of the game, and achieving the objective of the game is winning.
It says that people can end the game when a winner cannot be determined. I.E. Drawing is not winning because no winner was determined. Draws are a byproduct of people not having infinite time to play a game. While I disagree with it in the context of online play, this is understandable. However, this doesn't justify gaining points in ranked matches (not part of official rules) nor does it justify the claim of "Winner" of said game that ended in a draw.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Petunia » 19 Aug 2013, 22:06

Natter away!
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