Scoring system

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Re: Scoring system

Postby sinnybee » 19 Aug 2013, 17:05

gareth66 wrote:Two teams play a football match. The score at the end is level. The match is a draw. Have both teams won?

Almost all draws in Diplomacy involve the prior elimination of one or more players, in addition to the possible exclusion of one or more players from the draw in non DIAS games.
Your example is different in that all original players are in the draw.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Aeilko » 19 Aug 2013, 17:43

gareth66 wrote:Two teams play a football match. The score at the end is level. The match is a draw. Have both teams won?

Rhetorical question clearly. Petunia is right. There are three possible outcomes to a game of Diplomacy. You can win, you can draw or you can lose. There are those that think that a draw counts as a win. There are also those who think that a draw counts as a loss. Both points of view are clearly flawed though. Maybe there is an issue of perception, created by the description of the participants in a draw as "Winners" in the Stats tab (and in the end-of-game email). Maybe there is a seed of a suggestion for improvement there that I will carry over to the suggestions forum...


I disagree here, Football is a complete different game, simply in the fact that a football match has 2 teams, diplomacy has 7. A Draw is mostly 3 or 4 way (in my experience) which means 3 or 4 teams have been eliminated. In a football match you can't eliminate the a team and still end in a draw.
There's already a discussion about it in: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=40051
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Re: Scoring system

Postby gsmx » 19 Aug 2013, 18:47

There's certainly different levels of success of your outcome and the scoring of games does a very good job of reflecting that (solos worth significantly more then 2 way draws and so on). Should we do more to emphasis the importance of solos? Yeah sure, i suppose promoting a philosophy so that a solo is a win and a draw is a good effort could be a positive boost towards higher competitiveness.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 19:19

gsmx wrote:There's certainly different levels of success of your outcome and the scoring of games does a very good job of reflecting that (solos worth significantly more then 2 way draws and so on). Should we do more to emphasis the importance of solos? Yeah sure, i suppose promoting a philosophy so that a solo is a win and a draw is a good effort could be a positive boost towards higher competitiveness.



simply changing the wording probably isn't going to have as much of an impact. Rewarding points based on how many years you lasted, how many SCs you controlled at the end of the game would probably have more of an impact on keeping people in the game. If we're rewarding effort, then I can understand (although still disagree with) giving points for a draw. But as long as we have this winner take all function... you should NEVER get points for a draw. If you don't get 18 SC's you lose. Simple as that. Even better would be to remove draws completely but I don't see that happening.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Aeilko » 19 Aug 2013, 19:42

I don't think so, Draw's are just part of the game so why remove it?
Besides i don't think you should be judged on how many SC's you have or how fast you play. A game which takes longer is most of the time way more complex then a short game with many stabs. So you will never be sure if winning in less years is better then a long game.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Petunia » 19 Aug 2013, 19:44

VegaMan wrote:If you don't get 18 SC's you lose. Simple as that.

This is incorrect.

sinnybee wrote:.

Well, I'll always remember what that used to say!
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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 20:07

Petunia wrote:
VegaMan wrote:If you don't get 18 SC's you lose. Simple as that.

This is incorrect.



The point of the game is to obtain 18SC's. A draw is a loss because everyone that agreed to the draw quit before getting 18SC's. how is getting anything less than 18SC's not a loss? You win or you lose. There is no middle ground.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby Petunia » 19 Aug 2013, 20:23

You can keep saying that, but it's not going to make it any more true.

http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules ... lebook.pdf

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Re: Scoring system

Postby VegaMan » 19 Aug 2013, 20:32

Petunia wrote:You can keep saying that, but it's not going to make it any more true.

http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules ... lebook.pdf

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Yes... it's a draw. No one won. So it should still be counted as a loss.
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Re: Scoring system

Postby gsmx » 19 Aug 2013, 20:50

VegaMan wrote:But as long as we have this winner take all function... you should NEVER get points for a draw. If you don't get 18 SC's you lose. Simple as that. Even better would be to remove draws completely but I don't see that happening.

This is a bit of an extreme view, taking away the carrot of settling for a draw would completely change the dynamic of the game. Diplomacy is a game where you need to work your way through a lot of grey areas before you get anywhere near a black-and-white win. Unless there's a tonne of incompetence in a particular game it's pretty impossible to get to a solo on your own so you need to work with people on your way and why would they work with you once their own solo win is out of reach unless they have some hope of getting a piece of the pie. Everybody needs to do the "sure i'll share my win with you" dance before they get anywhere near a solo opportunity.
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