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Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 23 Aug 2016, 02:27
by WHSeward
ThomM wrote:In any event, this thread has sold me on the idea of the secret ballot draw option.

Secret ballots is definitely the way to play in any game, but especially so in a noDIAS game. They create the most competitive environment.

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 23 Aug 2016, 06:02
by I Love Italy
WHSeward wrote:
ThomM wrote:In any event, this thread has sold me on the idea of the secret ballot draw option.

Secret ballots is definitely the way to play in any game, but especially so in a noDIAS game. They create the most competitive environment.


I'd never use Secret Ballot in DIAS, but agreed on noDIAS. Makes the endgame much more interesting.

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 23 Aug 2016, 07:41
by Carebear
I Love Italy wrote:
WHSeward wrote:
ThomM wrote:In any event, this thread has sold me on the idea of the secret ballot draw option.

Secret ballots is definitely the way to play in any game, but especially so in a noDIAS game. They create the most competitive environment.


I'd never use Secret Ballot in DIAS, but agreed on noDIAS. Makes the endgame much more interesting.

I think secret ballots are best for any game. Why do you not think so for DIAS?

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 23 Aug 2016, 10:58
by Strategus
Carebear wrote:I think secret ballots are best for any game. Why do you not think so for DIAS?

I agree. In the game I created off the back of this thread (no support so far), I set it as DIAS and Secret Ballot, with the theory that DIAS would reduce the likelihood of anyone accepting a draw (as a draw would possibly include low centre players), and Secret Ballot making it easier for players to deny one. I saw that as forcing players to continue until fewer players remain, thus giving more opportunity for developments before a draw would be agreed. And I am also swung on Secret for future games for the above reasons.

ThomM wrote:I tend to like anything that allows for deception without hurting one's reputation.

I have also given this some thought. It is an interesting topic in its own right. I tend to think there is a balance between maintaining your own reputation and winning games. Whilst we don't want to gain a reputation of being a "stabby" player, if we never upset anyone we will rarely win a solo. I think I recall someone on this thread saying there needs to be some level of uncertainty, and I believe that applies to reputation as well. The game is all about managing relationships, and using them to further your own cause, whether that is to try to solo or just not to lose. But I think it makes the game more interesting if there is a bit of "brinkmanship" - i.e. "will he stab me in this game or will he honour the alliance this time?", and "do I need to get him before he gets me?". If people always know what to expect of you then they can take advantage. Also, having a mixed reputation could help you to foster relationships with certain players (i.e. those with an affinity/respect for that type of player).

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 23 Aug 2016, 19:11
by Carebear
GPD wrote:
ThomM wrote:I tend to like anything that allows for deception without hurting one's reputation.

I have also given this some thought. It is an interesting topic in its own right. I tend to think there is a balance between maintaining your own reputation and winning games. Whilst we don't want to gain a reputation of being a "stabby" player, if we never upset anyone we will rarely win a solo. I think I recall someone on this thread saying there needs to be some level of uncertainty, and I believe that applies to reputation as well. The game is all about managing relationships, and using them to further your own cause, whether that is to try to solo or just not to lose. But I think it makes the game more interesting if there is a bit of "brinkmanship" - i.e. "will he stab me in this game or will he honour the alliance this time?", and "do I need to get him before he gets me?". If people always know what to expect of you then they can take advantage. Also, having a mixed reputation could help you to foster relationships with certain players (i.e. those with an affinity/respect for that type of player).

This is why I think for serious competition stakes, like a tournament, Anonymous Players or Anonymous Countries should also be used. It helps to mitigate some external metagame considerations, like this player is really good or stabby.

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 23 Aug 2016, 23:50
by I Love Italy
Carebear wrote:I think secret ballots are best for any game. Why do you not think so for DIAS?


I think that it just comes down to what you're going for. DIAS, in my experience at least, comes down to a well ordered, yet tense endgame. Non-DIAS is more chaotic.

Secret ballots, in my experience, make the endgame more chaotic. So, if I'm playing Non-DIAS, I want it, but not in DIAS.

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 01:04
by Carebear
I Love Italy wrote:
Carebear wrote:I think secret ballots are best for any game. Why do you not think so for DIAS?


I think that it just comes down to what you're going for. DIAS, in my experience at least, comes down to a well ordered, yet tense endgame. Non-DIAS is more chaotic.

Secret ballots, in my experience, make the endgame more chaotic. So, if I'm playing Non-DIAS, I want it, but not in DIAS.

Hmmm. To me, secret ballots allow for more intrigue, which is always good in my book.

In what ways do secret ballots make the endgame more chaotic?

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 02:21
by I Love Italy
Carebear wrote:
I Love Italy wrote:
Carebear wrote:I think secret ballots are best for any game. Why do you not think so for DIAS?


I think that it just comes down to what you're going for. DIAS, in my experience at least, comes down to a well ordered, yet tense endgame. Non-DIAS is more chaotic.

Secret ballots, in my experience, make the endgame more chaotic. So, if I'm playing Non-DIAS, I want it, but not in DIAS.

Hmmm. To me, secret ballots allow for more intrigue, which is always good in my book.

In what ways do secret ballots make the endgame more chaotic?


By allowing for the intrigue that you mentioned. Intrigue has always, at least in my experience, been a force for chaos.

When I play DIAS I play it because I want it to be a tense, simple, brutal endgame. A draw is reached with everyone on the board, or someone solos. No iffs, ands, or buts about it. Secret ballot makes shenanigans possible which could potentially take away from that, such as those mentioned in the thread.

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 02:52
by Nanook
Secret ballot, in my experience, leads to more solos rather than fewer--so if you play DIAS in the hopes of more solos, it seems to me that secret ballot would help that cause, rather than hurt it. I don't have numbers on that though, so it could very well just be my experience combining with what seems intuitive (that if you can veto a draw anonymously, it would help solos rather than hurt them).

Re: 3 Way Draws are for Sissies

PostPosted: 24 Aug 2016, 06:21
by I Love Italy
nanooktheeskimo wrote:Secret ballot, in my experience, leads to more solos rather than fewer--so if you play DIAS in the hopes of more solos, it seems to me that secret ballot would help that cause, rather than hurt it. I don't have numbers on that though, so it could very well just be my experience combining with what seems intuitive (that if you can veto a draw anonymously, it would help solos rather than hurt them).


I don't play it for more solos.

I play it for the tough decisions you end up having to make in the endgame. You know, those times where it's a tough call between eliminating a three or four center power, but risking a loss to another player's solo, whereas in non-DIAS you end up with the ability to take a draw not including that power, who's often wishing for the game to end enough so that they can be easily persuaded to accept.


Although, I have seen secret ballot occasionally lead to a draw that participants weren't wishing to happen. Most notably one time where Gavrilo Princip and I got up to some poorly communicated false proposal shenanigans to try and psyche out Carebear. :D That was a fun game.