Forum game Diplomacy league

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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league - a suggestion

Postby sjg11 » 17 Jan 2011, 22:00

Waterice man wrote:
Pedros wrote:Finally, tournament control. This tournament could become very big amongst the Forum Games players, and it needs proper direction. For the Doubles Tournament Rick established a small group - the Tournament Board, composed of respected players who were not taking part - to whom issues could be referred when necessary. In Doubles this seemed to be mostly issues about surrenders and NMRs, which might be less of an issue here, but it would be a very good idea for resolving questions especially about whether games are suitable or not; I suspect however that most of the people with the experience to be members might want to be playing! But certainly the Director or Directors need to be experienced players of a range of games (this argument feels as though it's leading to a need for more than one Director - with the same problem of who's going to want to sit this tournament out!?).

Thoughts?


This board could just be the assembled GMs, of which I am happy to be a part

Like I've said I'd love to be a member of the board. I have no experience of Gming but I'd be willing to do it.

For scoring I think we should have an average of points per game. In my opinion an average is fair because it takes points and games completed into account.
The points won for a game would depend on the game. For this we'd take into consideration:
The amount of players playing
The difficulty level of the game

I think for deciding which games we should play we should have three options which offer a few of the previous points (for example we have one in the real world and one in another world).

I agree with the idea of a Tournament Board.
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league - a suggestion

Postby Ceebs » 18 Jan 2011, 07:08

Pedros wrote:We seem agreed that Ceebs is right about teams, and teams of three sounds sensible.


As much as i am amused by the prospect of getting credit for good ideas that aren't mine, i feel obliged to point out that those ideas were in fact suggested by cs, not me.

As for my thoughts on the league as a whole, i think it's intriguing but very very ambitious. Considering the difficulty we already face in running good quality individual games, a separate long-term series may have a hard time getting off the ground right now (in terms of recruitment) and organization/maintenance would be a big difficulty.

Instead of establishing a separate series of games, my recommendation would be for the establishment of a friendly ranking system for the existing and future forum games. Essentially it means designating some games as 'ranked' and using them to establish a leaderboard of sorts. The reason why not all forum games would be fit for inclusion is the same suggested by Pedros--that many unsuitable games are rightfully considered to be playtests/works-in-progress or may have been heavily unbalanced or cancelled due to DMRs.

I realize that this suggestion is really more like a ranking ladder and not a tournament. For one thing, it would mean that participating players would not be all playing in the same number of games or in all the same variants. In my view, this is not a drawback, but actually a positive feature, since recruiting reliable players for a large series of the games would be really difficult (consider the number of dropouts that occur over just one game, and magnify that if players are expected to play in many consecutive games).

Alternatives to regular tournament scoring structures are available. For one example, i came across an interesting system that is used at another diplomacy community, dipplomaticcorp. I didn't study it in minute detail, but i can see that it has the notable advantage of being able to standardize games of any size/variant. So, participating players do not all have to play in the same games, or even the same number of games.

Speaking of variants, i'd have to disagree with Pedros' suggestion of incorporating not only map variants but also various modalities of rule variants. The level of complication arising from rule variants makes them not suited for a long-term league system because the results cannot be standardized (though in an isolated tournament, sure they could work). Classic diplomacy rules played on new map variants would be best for the idea that I'm suggesting (also i think build-rule changes are benign enough to be acceptable as well).

In terms of execution, i believe this idea could be a lot more plausible too. Firstly, players could opt in or out on an ongoing basis, and therefore it is up to each individual to choose whether they want the results of their forum games to be compiled into the rankings. This means that 'ranked' games do not necessarily have to include only participating 'league players', thereby making it easier to get full rosters for games.
Secondly, in order to have the league hit the ground running, some ongoing or previously completed games that are judged to have been of a suitable quality could be retroactively designated as 'ranked'. This means that from day one of the league there is a leaderboard and no need to wait a number of months before there are any official results to be noted.

So in sum, no it isn't a tournament per se, but i think it's a more realistic approach to tying together multiple forum games. I apologize if i've derailed the original proposition--i just want to put this similar idea up for discussion and comparison.
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby Pedros » 18 Jan 2011, 12:30

Thanks Ceebs - and apologies to cs for the mis-attribution!

I take your point about the difficulty of long-term continuity; that was what lay behind my emphasis on the fact that team membership could change over time - it would be essential in a league framework. And a frequently-changing team membership would make the notion of 'leaders' somewhat misleading! I don't have a strong view about ranking system v league of teams, although there clearly isn't room for both!

Thanks though for coming up with the DiplomaticCorps ranking system. Last summer, when I was trying to recruit support for the idea of a main-site ranking taking into account the quality of opponents, DoubleGrande and I spent some time discussing an ELO-based system, but we didn't find DipCorps. Looks a bit hairy, but with the talent we have around it should be possible to use something like that!

Rule variations I think however that there's a lot more to discuss over the question of rule variations. The whole point of the Variant Game idea is that it does allow differences. I would certainly agree that the game has to be 'recognisably a variant of Diplomacy', but I don't agree with the tight limitations you're putting on that. For instance, you are currently playing Imperial, which permits direct movement of fleets from one end of a canal to the other; Colonial has the trans-siberian railway. Would you actually disallow those two games? And what about Seismic, which has received possibly the most rave reviews of any game on the Forum (talking of which, peanut if you're watching, when do we get the new game you promised last summer!!?)

Waterice man wrote:This board could just be the assembled GMs, of which I am happy to be a part

Good idea!

Plenty to discuss here!
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby sjg11 » 18 Jan 2011, 21:09

Pedros wrote:Thanks Ceebs - and apologies to cs for the mis-attribution!

I take your point about the difficulty of long-term continuity; that was what lay behind my emphasis on the fact that team membership could change over time - it would be essential in a league framework. And a frequently-changing team membership would make the notion of 'leaders' somewhat misleading! I don't have a strong view about ranking system v league of teams, although there clearly isn't room for both!

Thanks though for coming up with the DiplomaticCorps ranking system. Last summer, when I was trying to recruit support for the idea of a main-site ranking taking into account the quality of opponents, DoubleGrande and I spent some time discussing an ELO-based system, but we didn't find DipCorps. Looks a bit hairy, but with the talent we have around it should be possible to use something like that!

Rule variations I think however that there's a lot more to discuss over the question of rule variations. The whole point of the Variant Game idea is that it does allow differences. I would certainly agree that the game has to be 'recognisably a variant of Diplomacy', but I don't agree with the tight limitations you're putting on that. For instance, you are currently playing Imperial, which permits direct movement of fleets from one end of a canal to the other; Colonial has the trans-siberian railway. Would you actually disallow those two games? And what about Seismic, which has received possibly the most rave reviews of any game on the Forum (talking of which, peanut if you're watching, when do we get the new game you promised last summer!!?)

Waterice man wrote:This board could just be the assembled GMs, of which I am happy to be a part

Good idea!

Plenty to discuss here!

I would prefer a league of teams myself because it would allow a long series of games to be played reasonably reliably. I also agree that the membership of teams should be flexible. As for scoring systems I think it'd be better to decide what kind of tournament we want and pick a scoring system to suit it rather than picking a scoring system now. I think we should have a poll to decide which variant to play next. I think there should be rule variants and games with no major changes in the rules in the poll so that the players pick what type of game they want to play.
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby Pedros » 19 Jan 2011, 17:39

I know a league was your original idea sjg, but at present you're flying in the face an awful lot of experience!
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby sjg11 » 19 Jan 2011, 21:10

Pedros wrote:I know a league was your original idea sjg, but at present you're flying in the face an awful lot of experience!

Now I think about it, the fact you're all experienced GMs should make me listen to you. This is my proposal:

If possible I would like a League
However if you don't think there is a way to make League work then we should implement a rankings system.
One of the people in charge of the Mafia forum.
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He writes a good game,
and runs it the same,
Oh what a perfect GM!

Come on Arsenal!
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby Pedros » 20 Jan 2011, 09:00

I'll go with that!
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby sjg11 » 20 Jan 2011, 21:13

Pedros wrote:I'll go with that!

Ok. Now we just sit and wait for interest.
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and runs it the same,
Oh what a perfect GM!

Come on Arsenal!
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby cs » 21 Jan 2011, 00:10

Should we opt for a league, I'm willing to captain a team. (I've captained tourney teams, so it's nothing new, and I'm sure I can recruit two other reliable players.)

I'd suggest we just start sign-ups for teams. If we get a sufficient number of teams (that look reliable in quality, which I would say means having at least one person who has participated reliably in forum games in the past), we start. If not, we can implement rankings.
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Re: Forum game Diplomacy league

Postby cs » 21 Jan 2011, 00:17

sjg11 wrote:

However if you don't think there is a way to make League work then we should implement a rankings system.


I'll also say that I'm against a rankings system for forum games, but it's for purely personal reasons. Frankly, I find I let the ranking system create pressure for me when playing traditional games. The problem with ranking is that once you have a good one, you tend to try to protect it. I somehow ended up ranked #14 on the site (not really sure how, as I'm certainly not the 14th-best player), and I now find my conduct in games, and even which ones I'll join, is affected by a desire to keep my points total up. It's a little silly, frankly, and I freely acknowledge that, but I can't help it. The pleasant thing about forum games is that I'm not really competing for anything--I just play the game for its own sake. I'm not complaining about having a good ranking, mind you, but I do enjoy the non-ranked aspect of forum games.
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