Players agreed at start of game to draw

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Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby daltin » 23 Jul 2016, 09:29

I am in a ranked game and one player mentioned that I should vote for a draw, with him (at 15 depots) and his ally (at 5 depots) taking the draw with me (the only other player at 6 depots) losing.

He said that he and his ally had agreed to a draw at the start of the game.

4. Players must enter a game aiming to achieve the best result possible from the game. This intention may be modified by circumstances in the game but players are not allowed to enter a game with the intention of drawing with another player or other players, or to lose the game.

Does this rule apply to that?

Thanks,
Daltin
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby BlueFingers » 23 Jul 2016, 10:19

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's really breaking the rules. They ENTERED the game with the goal of winning. They started talking and decided a draw was the best option for them and stayed true to the alliance.
It's a different story when two people agree before even entering that they are gonna enter the same game with the express purpose of drawing. That's cheating. But I don't see anything wrong with two players who randomly enter the same game and once the game begins, they decide to ally and take a 2-way draw.
That said, you don't have to accept the draw.
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby Zosimus » 23 Jul 2016, 15:24

I think that it's blatant cheating and that the offenders should be drawn and quartered.

My views are in the minority, however.
Be more aggressive.
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby daltin » 23 Jul 2016, 21:39

Since Zosimus is ranked higher than Blue Fingers, I will take his input as the final judgement.

So to draw and quarter them I will need to know where they live. Can someone help me with that? Site Admin? Anyone?
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby Olive Branch » 24 Jul 2016, 03:36

Personally, I think the guy (?) with 15 is selling himself short. Why not go for a solo?

If I were you, I'd be looking into how two players can be allies, yet one amasses 15 centres while the other has just 5. If I had 'agreed to a draw' at the beginning of a game, I would never let him grow to three times my strength, and still class him as an ally. Is there not grounds for you to break up this alliance?

Personally, I don't think saying "let's draw this game" at the beginning can be called cheating, because nobody knows if those are a player's real intentions. For me, I will go into a game looking to build a strong alliance with someone. If that player gives me reason, or opportunity, to stab then I will. But you've got to be clever about it, because it usually results in the stabbee going kamikaze on the stabber. If you can't make it stick, you're an idiot for trying it. A two-way draw is far better than a defeat.

But in this case, you have accounted for 26 centres... what about the other 8? Can you get the holders of these on side? I would agree with Zosimus to an extent, because this is certainly questionable. I experienced it in a game once where a player joined a surrendered position that was one year away from a guaranteed solo, and began seemingly carebearing another player to a result. Mods can only do so much to prevent cheating, but a 15-centre power wants to share a draw with a 5-centre power when he is at least twice the size of his greatest rival? For me, your suggestion that this is breaking the rule that you must go for the best possible result is valid.

One final thing, though, is the draw voting a secret or open ballot? If secret, the player in question may just be saying that he'd accept a draw, but secretly he will reject, and blag that another player has rejected. If it's open ballot then things are a lot more clean cut. Again, though, I presume if it's secret ballot a Mod would be able to see whether said player were really going for the best possible result...
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby daltin » 24 Jul 2016, 06:01

Yeah, I counted wrong. He's got 16 depots. He is sitting next to 3 depots that cannot be defended, and has only one depot at risk. Also he hasn't built all the units he could build, he has been one unit behind for 2 years now, building one unit each year when he could have built 2.

The other 7 depots are in civil dis due to surrender. Voting for draw is closed ballot.

Just leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Would it be beyond reason not to accept the draw, and make them earn their draw between the two? Or is that just bad form when the result is a foregone conclusion? I could let the draw expire or vote against it.
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby Olive Branch » 24 Jul 2016, 06:21

In my opinion, it would be perfectly reasonable of you to reject the draw and then ask a mod to investigate if the player who has a solo at his mercy doesn't take it.

I understand carebearing, I'm quite the carebear myself, if I find a very good ally. If someone communicates well, and contributes well to the gameplan, then yes I will aim to fight to a draw with them. If an ally pisses me off, then I will turn on them. It's simple. But would I carry someone who has not been playing well, and is 13 centres inferior to me, all the way to a two-way draw? No. Who would, if there were not some bias, a personal incentive?

Personally I'd be calling them on this. Why would he split the result with another player, if this were not some form of metagaming? Why would he not just take the solo that is at his mercy? But be warned, I believe it is against the rules to openly accuse (in Public Press, for instance) a player of cheating WITHOUT reporting it to the mods.
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Re: Players agreed at start of game to draw

Postby super_dipsy » 24 Jul 2016, 06:28

daltin wrote:Would it be beyond reason not to accept the draw, and make them earn their draw between the two? Or is that just bad form when the result is a foregone conclusion? I could let the draw expire or vote against it.

Absolutely fair. There are almost no circumstances where it is even slightly dodgy not to accept a draw. A draw is simply a proposal that the players in the game have had enough and want to stop. It has to be unanimous, and if only one player wants to play on then so be it. The only case I can think of where it can be considered a bit unethical is when a stalemate has been reached. In the case of a stalemate, while it is reasonable to try hard to destabilize the parties to engineer a result there comes a point where refusing to accept it is a draw is only continued in the hope that another player will finally give in out of sheer boredom and miss some moves or make a mistake. But even in this situation a player is entitled to hold on while the 'stalemate' process on site is executed.

So go ahead and keep fighting if that is what you want to do. Actually organizing a 2-way is not that easy, with plenty of opportunities for the stronger power to slip up and accidentally win, and it also re-emphasizes each turn that a solo is his for the taking....

By the way, just to echo what others have said about the general situation, if two players in a game decide to work together to share a draw, even early in the game, then that does not break any rules. It is only if they enter the game with that as a pre-arranged plan that it is cheating.

PS Just saw Olive Branch's post. I did actually run a quick eye over the game and I am pretty convinced the deal is above board and clean.
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